Season 8 Episode 2: Punch the Monkey and Bad News About Flat Faced Dogs

A baby macaque clutching an orange plush shouldn’t teach us this much about biology, but Punch does. His quiet hold on a stuffed orangutan opens a door into attachment science, stress, and how primate societies enforce rules we often mistake for cruelty. We walk through why zookeepers reached for a surrogate object, how tactile comfort supports motor development and emotional regulation, and what happens when a first-time mother and a heat wave collide with the unforgiving math of survival. Along the way, we examine the “bullying” clips through a scientific lens—dominance, submission cues, and the essential role of maternal coaching—while celebrating glimmers of recovery as grooming and real hugs begin to replace the plush.

Then we shift from the enclosure to our living rooms. Flat-faced dogs remain wildly popular, but a new UK study across 14 brachycephalic breeds quantifies the toll: widespread BOAS, exercise intolerance, snorting, sleep disruption, and heat sensitivity tied to extreme skull shapes. We break down the grading scale, the stark numbers for pugs and Pekingese, and the three big drivers of risk—short muzzles, narrow nostrils, and excess fat around the airway. Not all breeds scored the same, and that’s the hopeful part: careful selection can nudge beloved lines toward open airways and stronger health without abandoning them.

Across both stories runs a single thread: love is better when it listens to evidence. From managing crowds around Punch to resisting the exotic pet impulse, from breeding away from extremes to helping current dogs breathe easier with weight control and heat care, small choices add up to real welfare gains. If this mix of heart and hard data resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more curious minds can find us. What did you learn that changed how you see animals today?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello, science enthusiasts. I'm Jason Zakoski.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm Chris Zakoski.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker, Bernoulli, and Ginger.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

The science animals on social media. If you love science, and you love pets, you've come to the right spot.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

So put on your safety glasses.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

And hold on to your tail.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

This is the Science Podcast. Hello and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there. This is episode two of season eight. Chris, it looked like we were gonna get a pass straight through till spring, but we've been hit quite hard by a couple blizzards. How are you feeling about this?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I'm feeling well, I tested positive for negativity about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Whereas the burners are they just love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Bunsen, especially, he is whoa, this is excellent. The roads are not very good at all. No, like driving on them was a nightmare.

What’s On Deck: Punch And Pets

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah, that's the one thing if you live in a colder climate where it can snow and blizzard, is it's not so much that the snow is the problem, but if you have to commute, it can make your commute pretty dangerous. And there's always like cars in the ditch or collisions from people going a little too quickly or even through no no fault of their own, just hitting a rough patch. Yeah. So if you're in the area we where we are and you're listening to this like in February, and not at a later date, drive safe. All right, what's on the show this week? In science news, I thought we should talk about punch. Chris, have you been following Punch the Monkey?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I have been religiously following Punch the Monkey.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I talked to some of my coworkers about it, and a couple of them are head over heels in love with punch. And a couple haven't even heard of Punch the Monkey, so haven't even heard of him.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

And that was interesting in my office too, in my pod office. I said, Who is following Punch the Monkey? And a couple people were and others weren't, but the ones that are, it's like we're part of a cult of punch the monkey. We love we we need shirts, like we need to get jackets and maybe meet at the bike racks after school to talk about punch because he's so cute.

Meet Punch The Macaque

SPEAKER_01 2:30

If you haven't heard about punch the macaque, we're gonna get into that. It started off sad, but it's got a it's got a better ending than maybe if we had covered this last week. And in pet science, another study, and we've covered a few of these, have come out about the brachycephalic dogs. I've seen a few videos on TikTok of there's like a trend that happens at vet offices. Maybe you've seen these, Chris, where somebody behind the camera says, Hey, what breed of dog would you not get? And I would say 80% of the people in the vet offices say uh French bulldog or a similar brachy civil dog. Let's get on with the show. There's no time like Science Time. This weekend's science news, we're gonna talk about the baby Japanese macaque, Punch. And as you alluded to in the preamble, Chris, you've been following Punch probably sooner than I have. I'm uh I I've only been on the punch bandwagon maybe the last couple weeks, but it's been an ongoing saga. Where did you first see any news about punch?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Probably through social media on one of my sites that I saw the cute picture of him holding the orange toy, the orange stuffy, and then I heard that IKEA had a whole bunch, and then it I just looked at his cute little face and was thinking, aww. And then I read about the mother abandoning him, and I was aww. And then the little bit of you know, social hierarchy that they go through. I was like, aww, and then I was hooked.

Why The Orangutan Plush Matters

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah. So Punch was born in July in captivity at a zoo in Japan, and he gained global attention for being abandoned by his mother, which is sad, and you might think, why would you get global attention for that? But they gave this little guy a stuffed orangutan toy, and he's become a sensation. Like there are lineups to see Punch because like he was mistreated or bullied by other monkeys being chased away or dragged or punched by them, and then he would go and you go sit alone and hug his toy. Oh, so it just hugs at your heartstrings. But I thought we could talk maybe about why they gave Punch the little stuffed toy, like there's a reason for that, there's good signs for that, and then maybe why perhaps Punch was both abandoned by his mother and also bullied by other monkeys at the zoo. So, Chris, why did they give Punch the little orangutan toy?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

So the zookeepers at the Ichikawa zoo in Japan, they initially did try alternative solutions. They gave him rolled towels of different sizes for him to cling to because it's the clinging that's important that builds muscle strength. And babies instinctively they cling to their mother immediately after birth. And so that's why they use that plush orangutan toy. Clinging, I like I said, builds muscle strength. It also helps to develop motor coordination and then also provides psychological security. And after birth, Punch had nothing to grip onto after he was abandoned by his mother.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

And of course, there's psychological reasons why they gave a toy to this little monkey because the toy acts as an attachment figure. And at six months old, Punch would normally still be nursing from his mom and depending heavily on that mother bond, mother contact. And that toy gives him a little bit of emotional regulation, which he would cling to after he got bullied. It gave him physical contact. He would this one broke me. The video of him like throwing the arm of the orangutan over him to give him a hug. So it's it simulates physical contact, and it's a source of stress reduction for the little guy. And in a way, it's a substitute for not having his mummy. This is a very similar to what we do with little humans and toddlers, like little humans, little babies and toddlers, they get really attached to their stuffies, and it's a classical psychological experiment in the Harlow stub studies, where if primate has the and band been abandoned, they do better if they have a even a stuffed animal to replicate the mother that's not there anymore.

Maternal Abandonment And Heat Stress

SPEAKER_00 7:09

And so that toy not only potentially could provide comfort, but it would hopefully help Punch s integrate socially back into the troupe later on. Now, you might be wondering why Punch was abandoned by his mother. And abandonment in macaques is unusual, but it's actually not unheard of. And there were some possible contributing factors that may have led Punch's mother to abandon him. She was a first-time mother, and so she had inexperience with caring for an infant, and there's a higher likelihood of rejection with first-time mothers. But reportedly, Punch was born during a heat wave. So that's a significant environmental stressor because high temperatures create physiological stress and it's a resource drain on the available resources around. It also impacted the maternal survival risk with being born during a heat wave. And so there's an evolutionary explanation to all of this because mothers may actually prioritize future reproductive success over taking a vulnerable infant if the survival conditions are poor. And that's known as an adaptive reproductive strategy when under stress.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

When Punch was bullied by the other monkeys in the troupe or the group, this is normal social interaction, not what we would classify as bullying. Japanese macaques have these strict hierarchies where rank is inherited from the mother's family line, and then you are have to be dominant to keep your hierarchy spot through aggression. So even with Punch's mummy there, his he still would experience aggression from the other monkeys. But if the mum was a lot more attached to the little guy, there would be less aggression. So not having a mum there just supercharged the amount of quote-unquote bullying that you may have saw for the other monkeys give him on social media. So Punch kind of didn't learn signaling to be submissive, like and like monkeys would give off some kind of signal that Punch was getting up in their grill, and the mum would say, Oh, teach him that you need to like chill, stop being such pest. And Punch didn't learn that, so he just crossed a line, and then he got told he crossed a line. And to us, that looks very cruel. So he just hasn't learned for that time when those videos went viral, those social hierarchy rules that the mum would help him with. And that's not necessarily good for Punch because it's gonna give him some troubles integrating into the troupe. And I think we can all see that Punch was pretty stressed out sometimes, which is sad. And then it knocks him down to the bottom in the social rank when he becomes an adult.

Signs Of Hope And Public Frenzy

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, for sure. So mothers are important to teach those social survival, those social survival skills for sure. Now the aggressive incidents that you may have seen in the video included being dragged in a circle by a larger monkey, and there was some chasing, and one where he was retreating to hide behind rocks while still clutching the toy. I know. And then there were periods where he sat in isolation, but there was a positive where another monkey stepped in and did some occasional grooming, which the internet did a little bit of a sigh of relief because grooming is important because it does indicate potential social bonding and it reduces stress hormones, and it actually also may improve his chances of integration.

Human Attention: Help And Harm

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah, and months later, there's a lot of videos you can watch in the internet where Punch is making friends, um, where he's there's a really adorable one where another monkey has wrapped him up in its arms and squeezing him for a hug. So Punch finally got his hug and he didn't need it from his stuffed orangutan. So there is good news to the story. The public response has been overwhelming. These videos have caused a major surge in visitors, and but it's also given there's some been some issues with that because people have been uh really wanting to see punch. They've had to increase barriers around where the macaques are and just restrict photography and other things that come with crowds, like noise, and that can also increase animal stress. I think as we wrap up, what's really interesting to me from a scientific perspective is that maternal care is really critical in primate development, and that there are these social hierarchy levels that can drive what we see as bullying, but it's just teaching them their place in the group. And definitely it looks awful, and I feel felt so bad for little punch.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Some more core scientific takeaways can include attachment objects, such as the plushie, can be substitutes for missing caregivers. And early social disruption can affect lifelong behavior. So it'll be interesting to continue to follow punch to see if there's any deficits there. And human attention can both help and harm animal welfare, like with the visitors to the zoo, the increase there, but then also maybe uh taking part in the exotic trade of animals because they're cute and they're popular, and that's definitely dangerous. I just think, didn't Ross on Friends have a monkey?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

I think he had a spider monkey, a little teeny yeah, so and then he definitely rehabilitated that one back into the correct hands to take care of the monkey.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah, because punch is so popular, you can just imagine people all over the world are like, hey, I would like a macaque. And the answer is no, please don't get a macaque.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

No, because they become strong and aggressive, and little. They're not just little for very long, and they're not cohabitating with humans isn't a good idea.

Shift To Pet Science: Flat-Faced Dogs

SPEAKER_01 13:36

No. But that's science news for this week. This week in Pet Science, we are going to be looking at a study published this month, February 18th, in plus one about flat-face dogs or aka the brachycephalic dogs. And I don't know if you know this, Chris, but the French bulldog is still one of the most popular dogs in all of North America for families to get.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

So it is a very, I know that.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

And they're not the only brachycephalic dogs. They brachycephalic dogs are dogs with the very short face and flattened skull. So you might have the short muzzles or very prominent eyes, so think a pug, and very narrow nostrils. Among the French bulldogs, the other common breeds of brachycephalic dogs are pugs, bulldogs, the peekanese, the chins, boxers, and the Staffordshire bull terriers. This study comes from the United Kingdom. What's going on in the United Kingdom with these dogs?

BOAS Explained And The UK Study

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Because they become extremely popular, there is a surge in ownership of these dogs, and that increased popularity has brought more attention to the health problems that they can suffer from, concerns from the veterinarian team, and then also bringing in debates about ethical breeding and what that looks like. They do have an obstructive airway, and it's obstructed, which, as you said, is caused by their skull shape. And some of the symptoms of that are loud breathing, snorting, they have difficulty exercising, they have an intolerance to heat, and they have sleep problems with their chronic airway obstruction. And because the skull is shortened, the soft tissues are not. They're not, they're not reduced proportionally. So that creates that airway blockage.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, and we're talking about a chronic breathing disorder caused by skull shape. And that's what all of these symptoms are part of. And the acronym is BOAS, brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome. And so this study started from September 2021 to April 2024. And of course, they needed time to crunch the numbers, and they looked at nearly 900 dogs, 14 brachycephalic breeds, and it was led by the veterinary team at the University of Cambridge. And what they were looking at was how these dogs breathed. And to measure that, they had to measure breathing. So they had exercise tests, dogs were looked at as they did physical activity, and their breathing performance was evaluated. So there's actually a grading scale. I think you read into this.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So grade zero is normal breathing, so no noise or obstruction, all the way to grade three, which has a severe obstruction. And I guess grade one is mild symptoms, and grade two is moderate obstruction. And so they use this grading scale along with recording head measurements, body measurements, nose width, and body condition, such as obesity levels in these dogs.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And what I found interesting in the study was some of the brachycephalic dog breeds did fairly good. So they were at lower risk.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Like the boxers and the Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, and then others didn't do so well.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

No, high-risk breeds include the included the Pekinees and the Japanese chin, the bulldogs and the pugs.

Risky Breeds, Data, And Grades

SPEAKER_01 17:19

One of the really shocking statistics from the data they took is that only 11% of Pekineese had normal breathing. So only 11% had grade zero, and only 7% of pugs had normal breathing. So that means within those breeds, Pekineese and Pug, the majority of them experienced airway obstruction from moderate to severe.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

And that's really unfortunate because one of the things that you need to do is breathe in order to live, like these dogs do need to exchange oxygen in their lungs. And there's actually three main factors that increased airway obstruction. And the first was the degree of the facial flatness. If they had a shorter muzzle, there was a higher risk. And those narrow nostrils reduced airflow intake. And they did find that fat deposits around airway, around their airways, did worsen obstruction. So obesity led to breathing difficulty.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

So as we've artificially selected for these dog breeds, because a lot of people think they're very cute, pugs were really popular. What, like 15 years ago? Do you remember how popular pugs were?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Longer than that. I will I worked with someone who had a pug, and all she would have is a pug. And she would come to work and she would talk about all the health concerns that her pug had. And I looked at her and I said, Oh my goodness, that there's a lot of concern there. And she's, oh, but they're fine, they're okay. And I just I was like, because the vet bills added up for sure.

Why Face Shape And Weight Matter

SPEAKER_01 18:59

The brachycephelic dogs have very baby-like facial features with the very large eyes and the very small nose. And instinctively, that makes you want to care for them like a baby. Natural selection would breed out all of these traits. You just wouldn't do as well with that. So the likelihood of you surviving and passing on your genes is low. But because we've humans have bred for those specific traits, they are maintained. Now, some good things, if we can go to improvements that the study mentioned, is that early in 2016, things were not as good as today. The awareness of breathing problems for all of these different breeds has increased drastically since then. And a lot of breeders are starting to move away from those that extreme morphology of giant eyes and flat, small nose. So they're selecting the dogs with less severe traits and they're moving towards healthier confirmations. I think also it's it is controversial, but a lot of vets are taking a harder line and like straight up saying these dogs are don't have a good quality of life. They literally have trouble breathing, which, as you mentioned, Chris, is important to you living. And it maybe was controversial a couple of years ago. People are like, you can't tell people what kind of dog they can or can't get. But a lot of vets have held their ground and said, no, we see these dogs, they come in and they're struggling. It's not good for them. And maybe we should, you know, not necessarily get rid of the French bulldog or the pug, but over the next 20, 30 years, breed traits that make their lives better.

Ethics, Breeding Trends, And Care

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Exactly. So a gradual improvement in breed health over generations might be a good solution.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Now, I don't want to make anybody feel bad if you've got one of those dog breeds, because we see them all the time, and they are lovable, cute, affectionate dogs, but it's just something to think about going forward if that's a dog breed you're interested in the future, right? There's nothing you can do about it now, but perhaps in the future. And that's a bit of an ethical question, right? Should animals be bred for appearance if it compromises their health? And that's a tough call. But we're here to give you the science, not tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

That's right. That's right. And love your pets, love the ones that you have, give them a big hug and take care of them as best as you can.

Loving Pets And Looking Ahead

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, love your dogs. That's right. Okay, that's pet science for this week. That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the science podcast. And a shout out to all the top dogs. That's the top tier of our Patreon community, The Popack. You can sign up in our show notes. All right, Chris, let's hear those names that are part of the top dogs.

Thank-Yous And Top Dogs Roll Call

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Amelia Fettig, Re Oda, Carol Hanel, Jennifer Challenge, Linnea Janet, Karen Cronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy. Diane Mason and Luke, Helen Chin, Elizabeth Boujois, Marianne McNally, Katherine Jordan, Shelly Smith, Laura Stephenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Anne Uchida, Heather Burback, Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben Rathart, Debbie Anderson, Sandy Brimer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde, Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark, Brianne Hawes, Peggy McKeel, Holly Burge, Kathy Zirker, Susan Wagner, and Liz Button.