Season 8 Episode 1: Baby Rhythm, Senior's Pet Challenges, and Dr. Raven Baxter on Science Communication

A newborn brain can feel the pulse before it knows the tune—and that single insight opens a door into how early our minds start to organize the world. We kick off the new season by exploring two studies that hit close to home: one revealing that infants build visual categories and detect musical rhythm far earlier than many assumed, and another mapping the real‑world challenges older adults face when caring for pets they deeply love. The data is surprising, the implications are practical, and the thread running through it all is how we turn evidence into everyday decisions.

Our guest, Dr. Raven the Science Maven, brings sharp insight and contagious energy to the bigger question: how do we bridge science and public life? From molecular biology to a PhD focused on communication, from catchy vaccine tracks to hosting Pfizer’s Science Will Win, Raven shows how storytelling, music, and personal narrative make complex ideas land. We talk institutional barriers, the pandemic’s hard lessons, why every science degree should include communication training, and how her nonprofit, The Science Haven, sparks curiosity with projects like Stellar Dreams.

If you enjoy smart, human stories that connect lab findings to daily choices, tap play, subscribe, and share with a friend who loves science and pets. And if you care about better SciComm in higher education, go to make science make sense.com and add your name. Your voice helps science reach the people it’s meant to serve.

Dr. Baxter's Website - you'll find her podcast link and social media links here

Our links - you'll find all of our social links and website links here

Transcript

Season Return And Life Update

SPEAKER_04 0:09

Hello, science enthusiasts. I'm Jason Zakoski.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

And I'm Chris Zakoski.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker, Bernoulli, and Ginger.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

The science animals on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right spot.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

So put on your safety glasses.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

And hold on to your tail.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

This is the Science Podcast. Hi everybody, and welcome back to the Science Podcast. This is episode one of season eight. Chris, we're back after a big break.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yeah, for sure. So we're back after that hiatus, and we're ready to share science news and pet science with all of you.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

If you've been listening for a while, you know that all of January I take off as a break from doing the podcast. But things changed a little bit for us at the end of December because Gord, my father-in-law and your stepdad, um, he had a medical emergency. And that kind of kind of consumed our life for the end of December, all of January, and the start of February.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

It has been busy, that's for sure.

Episode Roadmap And Guest Tease

SPEAKER_04 1:19

The good news is Gord is improving day by day, which is great after having open heart surgery, which is not everybody can say they made it through that. So it's good that he did. And it just meant that we had to put things some things on the back burner. All right, let's get on with the show for this first episode of the new season. We have two science news items, one about people, babies really, about how babies may be more in tune with music than we think. And then another one about uh folks who are quite elderly and pets. And uh the study had some, I don't want to say disappointing conclusions or dis disappointing points that it was making, but that pets aren't always uh overwhelmingly positive for people in the older age group. So it's kind of interesting study.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Mm-hmm. Like there's benefits and burdens.

Babies’ Visual Categorization Study

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Yep. And our guest this week, we do have an awesome guest to start off with, and it's Dr. Raven, the science maven. You might have remembered we talked to Raven Baxter years ago before she got her PhD. But it's not Raven, it's Dr. Raven now, which is very cool. And we're gonna be talking to her about science communication. All right, let's get on with the show because there's no time like Science Time. This week in Science News, we're gonna take a look at a new study that's been making the headways all across the uh science communication websites and news agencies, a study from PLOS PLOS Biology about infant perception. For a long time, the prevailing thought that was that babies have a pretty chaotic perception. We they sometimes get things, they sometimes don't. Some babies get different types of perception more than other babies, but the new evidence suggests that babies are born with much more sophisticated neurological abilities than we once thought, an early capacity to organize sensory information, which we'll get to, and rapidly developing cognitive tools. Now, we have to go way back to think about our babies when Donald and Adam were babies. That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Yeah, we're more familiar with like kittens and puppies in terms of the baby stage. But yeah, like it's a it's been a while, it's been a long time. So I did have to think way back, you know, back to the beginning of our kids' origins and yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 4:01

Even the last baby in our families, it would be Leah. And what is she, like five or six now? Well, Rafi too. And Rafi, I was gonna say Rafi and Leah, but they're like in school, and I think they were babies even like when the podcast started, way back when. So we just don't have a lot of experience with babies. So that's I saw this one and it was very cool. So let's talk a little bit about the methodology, Chris. What's going on in the study?

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Okay, well, they had study one, it was kind of in two parts. And so the first study was visual categorization in two-month-old infants. And what they did is they conducted MRI scans, so functional MRI scans on more than 100 awake infants. Now imagine how difficult that would be because the FMRI requires near stillness. And how do you do that with an infant? They were approximately two months old, and you know what else makes it difficult? Babies can't follow instructions.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Yeah. Stop moving, baby. That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

No, but I also think back to like baby photographers, and they get like the little babies dressed up in cabbage outfits. So they must, they must stay still if they are, you know, drunk on milk or whatever. I'm not sure. But the infants were shown images projected above them. So images such as animals, food, but household objects and other familiar items. And the it's kind of funny, the researchers described the setup as an IMAX for babies.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

Very cool. So the ventral visual cortex was the region studied that's responsible for recognizing and categorizing a visual object. So you see something, and that part of your brain, la la la, lights up. And the infant ventricle visual cortex responded similarly to adults. So that was kind of shocking. That prevailing thought was that babies wouldn't have the same kind of response to visual cues, but in fact, it was pretty much the same. It only differed depending on the object that they showed. So this suggests that early presence of category-specific neural organization. This suggests that babies have a very early presence of the ability to put things into categories. They may not know what the categories are, but they're able to make their own categories in their head, which is crazy to think about that, right? A baby doesn't know the name of things, but it's already starting to put them into categories of like objects.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Like they're little filing cabinets in their brain.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

That's I'm and dogs do that too. Like we've done studies before that dogs will put like a anything that looks like a tug toy, they recognize that as a tug toy, right? That's in their tug toy part of their brain. The other idea is that visual categorization probably doesn't develop solely over childhood. It develops instantaneously. It develops very quickly.

Newborn Rhythm Detection In Music

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Very quickly, you know. So the the baby's brains aren't just scattered mush. They are interacting with their world and making sense of it even before they can walk and talk, which is amazing and awesome.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

And the only thing that changes is the categories in their brain that they put what they see into those filing cabinets that you mentioned mentioned. So that that raises a couple cool questions like, are we just born with that? The ability to put things into categories. Is that an innate ability? It seems like it.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Or, you know, maybe the categorization develops rapidly in the first weeks after birth, where they're like, okay, blank state slate, but we gotta get our neurons firing and putting ideas and categories into our file file cabinets.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

Yeah. What would a baby's brain label a file cabinet? Like that's just wild, right? Because they don't have a written or spoken language yet, but they're putting things into categories.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Kind of like dogs, right? With the tug toys. Okay, and then study two is really cool. It's all about music. Now, both Duncan and Adam, our kids, did music. Duncan wasn't as gifted or studious at it as Adam, but Adam became quite musically gifted through band.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Hmm. Like when he started band, and then he said, Mom and dad, I want to start the royals. We looked at him like he grew a different head. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04 8:37

What? Yeah, because I come from a family of sports, right? Like my family was my dad, especially. We weren't super athletic, but we did sports. All like sports, like out the wahoo. But my mom also made everybody in my family take piano lessons. So I have some rudimentary piano skill set.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

You're very good at playing the piano, Jason.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

No, I'm I used to be. I can I'd have to like practice to be good at it again. Let's talk about the study. What's going on there, Chris?

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Yeah, so they had some goals for their research. The research questions are always super interesting. And they wanted to determine whether newborns can detect musical structure. And they also wanted to explore how early rhythm perception emerges. And so they used nearly 50 newborns, and the infants they found were less than 48 hours old. That is amazing. And the babies were sleeping during the recordings.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Oh, that's nice. They didn't have to have the baby to be m don't move.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Yeah. They recorded the brain activity using an EEG and they played music by Bach, piano music by Bach, and they modified the versions, one with a scrambled rhythm and one with a scrambled melody. And so then what they were looking for was signals that showed neural surprise. And they used a computer model analyzing the neural signals, and the evidence showed that babies predicted patterns. And so the altered rhythm, when they altered the rhythm of the music, it triggered a neural surprise. But the scrambled melody did not trigger that surprise. So the interpretation of that is that newborn brains can detect rhythm, but they cannot yet process the melody effectively. And so, like simply, babies can keep a beat, but they cannot follow a tune.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

It is funny, and it just makes me think of like the Lion King. That's the only music that Duncan would fall asleep to.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

And he would just calm right down. So I would I like the study.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

We had the Lion King on a CD player. This old I don't I think the CD player probably still works if it's somewhere in the house, or maybe it gave up the ghost. But I remember it was on repeat, right? When it was time to fall asleep. It was like his sleeping music. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

It made me relax too, because I was like, oh yes, perfect. It's time for time for bed.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

That's cool. And like in in previous man, probably three or four years ago, there was a study. Remember those baby Einstein that was the big craze? Baby Einstein.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yeah, I I fell into that pattern. I'm sure Adam had baby Einstein stuff because I knew that the the black and white pattern was really important for brain development. And then the the Jungle Gym baby Einstein brand. You know what?

SPEAKER_04 11:49

I was kind of marketing gimmick.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

I was influenced.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Yeah, we we were. It's on it. We wanted our kids to be Einstein's. The long short of this second study is that just play music for your kids. They'll be able to follow the beat and it's good for their brains. Any kind of music. Any kind of music. Like death metal, though. But who knows? I'm sure there's some babies that grow up listening to death metal and they're just fine.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah, for sure. But there is a biological explanation, Jason, because babies are exposed to prenatal sounds in in the womb. So the rhythm perception may develop early because of what they experience in the womb. There's rhythmic sounds like the mother's heartbeat, walking movements, bodily rhythms. They're they're swishing along in there as the mom moves, and the amniotic fluid muffles pitch and melody. So they're getting a rhythmic sound exposure versus the melody information before birth.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

Yeah, and one thing I'll be a little bit more serious that the study did mention was just because the babies can quote unquote follow a beat, it doesn't mean they have the behavioral ability to do music. Most babies, at least, they may not perceive musical meter fully, and their coordination to do music is slow to develop. They take a while to be able to dance in time. We've been to many dances, and the little kids are funny. They're just having fun. But they're certainly not moving their body in rhythm to the music.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

No.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

And then the ability to start playing musical instruments on time or even like hitting a drum, their brain may get it, but it's it takes a while for their body to learn how to do that.

Takeaways On Early Brain Organization

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Jason, I can't even do that. Like, hey, let's get on the dance floor. Nope, I can't dance. And then also when we do drum exercises at school, like if we I I love them. I love doing drumming, but it's like I'm always half a beat behind.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

And there, of course, uh, we should also say there's also prodigies of like little tiny toddlers that just can play the piano. Like I've seen it on it's been documented. It's a thing. Yeah. So I guess what are some of the takeaways from these studies?

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Well, these studies, both of them focused on brain activity rather than behavior. So it does remain unclear how the neural abilities will translate into cognitive skills or perception or like real real world behavior out in the wild. And the field, but and the field of newborns neuroscience is still emerging. Like they're working on it and new research is coming out all the time. And they are continuing to ask questions about hey, is this innate or is this learned? Let's talk a little bit more about that early brain, the that early brain organization and how it works. And like you said, does this tie into their developmental trajectories and how they'll be in the future?

Challenges Of Senior Pet Ownership

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Yeah. Very cool study. All right, that's science news for this week. This week in pet science, we're going to go to a study that was done on some of the negative experiences that older adults have with pet ownership. I don't want to be overly dour, but we are definitely skew positive with the stuff that we do on the science podcast with pets. Probably have some bias, and when we find a study where some of the pets are doing something good, it's one of the first ones that we discuss before it's we break it down. And I thought this one was interesting. I it got on my radar because of our experience with Gord. When Gord had his heart attack and a stroke, he had no ability to care for any of his pets. Um, and he has a dog named Doc and quite a few cats. And all of that was up in limbo until we organized as a family to figure it out. Duncan was a big help, actually. He took charge of the cats for sure for weeks. But I was just thinking about it, it wasn't necessarily negative, but as Gord was older, it definitely changed what he could do with his pets.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Yeah. And so this was a qualitative research design dealing with interviews with older adults who own pets. And they focused primarily on the dog and cat ownership experience, so not birds or reptiles. And the one thing I did in my research, I did a qualitative research design and I looked at the theme using coding and thematic analysis to identify recurring challenges and concerns because you look for a specific code. So I really appreciated that about this study. And what they found was some major themes that came from their research. They older adults reported both physical burden and health limitations. It's difficult walking or exercising pets as you get older. And there's challenges with grooming, feeding, and cleaning. And this is something I was worried about was an increased risk of a fall or injury related to pets. Because when you have a lot of pets under feet, under your feet, well, they don't mean to be, but they could be a tripping hazard for sure.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Oh man, having Doc in our house, how many times in the first week did you almost kill yourself because Doc is so small? Like he's just like I just about I just about died five times because of Doc.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

He's a miniature snailzer. Yeah. Um and he doesn't have any spatial awareness. No. He's like under your feet and is like, oh, there you are. And so the unfortunate thing is with declining health, that sometimes creates a mismatch between the owner's ability and the pet needs. So I guess if we're gonna continue talking about doc, like he his his recall is amazing and he doesn't go far from the house. So like letting him out was okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

But just adding to that before we get too far, Gord got Doc from this exact situation. Yes, he adopted Doc from a lady that couldn't care for Doc anymore. She made a really heart-wrenching decision, but the best one for Doc. Um so that that's where Doc came from, this exact situation. Anyway, sorry, I just thought that was interesting as well. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Oh, for sure. Another code or another theme in the research was financial strain. So vet costs are a major concern, and those include medical care and you know other expenses like food, grooming, and emergency treatments. And some participants worried about being unable to afford this type of care as they continued to age.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

We are at the point right now because we have insurance for the animals and we both have we're both working, we're in a much different place to pay for vet bills for our animals than somebody who's on a fixed income. Like it doesn't take a financial guru to figure that out. No. But yeah. Not every not everybody has the same amount of money when they retire or they're done with the rat race of being a worker.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Another theme that came out of the research was emotional stress and anxiety. So having a strong attachment to your animal created a fear about the pet's future if the owner became ill or died. And then there was stress about when pets actually became sick or aged, and then also an emotional guilt when the owner realized they could not provide ideal care for their animal. Now, one thing that was very good is I was able to bring Doc into the hospital with Gord, and that strong attachment and that emotional bond, I think overrode the fear about Doc's future because it made Gord feel a lot better. So I was really glad that we could do that.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

But you know, but he was worried about the cats, especially Mouse, his one of the cats, mouse, which is his favorite. Yeah, and he was of a lot.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

And he was sick. And it was just it was just a lot going on. But even today, Jason, we talked about Bunsen and Bunsen's approaching nine years old.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

And like I actually myself have a bit of emotional stress and anxiety about with my strong attachment to him.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

You he just loves you. You're the mummy fan. I don't think he went, he didn't come on a walk yesterday. I think because he you weren't coming, because it was cold.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

It was cold.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

And he's just, I think I'll stay with her. So his attachment to you is stronger than frolicking in the snow.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

That's a huge attachment. Wow. Yeah, I noticed that. I watched him look at you, look at the other dogs that were running so happily in the field, and then look back at the house, look at you, look at the house. And I'm like, I'm just gonna go get you, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Back to the study, though. Another theme that came out of the research was the responsibility burden. So pets sometimes were experienced as restricting traveler social activity, so they were a burden on that, and creating daily obligations that felt overwhelming to the to the participants, study participants. So caregiving demands could increase during periods of owner illness, and that impacts, you know, the the person who's in charge, but then also the person who's ill.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

There's quite a few more themes that came out of the study, things like social and environmental challenges, you know, complaints from neighbors for noise or mess and housing restrictions on pet. And then also as you downsize, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:52

If you're older, you might be moving from a large house to a condo or something. Yep.

Balancing Benefits And Burdens Of Pets

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Mm-hmm. And difficulty accessing pet friendly services. And last lastly, the last theme was pet health and end-of-life concerns. So caring for sick or aging pets is emotionally and physically taxing. And decision making about when the right time to let your pet go creates distress. And you know, the grief after pet loss was profound and is profound. Like I know that you still talk about Callan, our first golden, and that loss, that end of life for her, was very difficult for our family.

Meet Dr. Raven: Path To SciComm

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Yeah, I don't know if it changes with your age. I think just pet loss sucks. It's just awful. Yeah. But if you've got a bunch of other things going on, like especially like your health is declining, and then you do lose a pet, who knows? Maybe that is compounded. That's a good point that the study makes. All right. Those are the bad. Now, a couple things maybe to end on a much more positive note. Even when they were doing this qualitative data, most participants in the study viewed pet ownership as positive overall for the reasons we've done in numerous other breakdowns companionship, meaning, and emotional support. Um, so the study wanted to emphasis that there's uh there's a good positive, negative, good, bad dichotomy, but sometimes we gloss over the struggles and the negatives of pet ownership, but they're there. And I think it's timely for our family to to talk about this. And it's maybe interesting for the people who are listening. All right, that's pet science for this week. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I'm thrilled to welcome back Dr. Raven, the Science Maven. Hi, Doc. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I we talked a while ago, I think 2020. You were a guest on the show, and my wife and I have been following your journey since then. And congratulations for all you've gotten up to since that point.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yes, I honestly, Jason, I can't believe it's been that long. Five years, and thank you so much for keeping up with all of my shenanigans. I've kind of hard to keep up with, but like, yeah, I'm I'm eager to also hear about what you've been up to. I'm so glad that you still have your podcast. Getting into all of that, like it's good to be back.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

Nice. Just for people that maybe don't know much about you for our listeners, could you tell us a little bit about your science background?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Absolutely. So I'm a trained molecular biologist. My bachelor's and master's degrees are both in molecular biology. I, after getting my two degrees in science, went and worked as a selling molecular biologist in a private drug discovery laboratory and doing contract research. So that was very fun. In that position, I learned that, you know, not only is doing science fun, but sharing science is fun. But there were no opportunities for me to do that while working at the institution that I was in. And in fact, it was frowned upon to do that because of privacy concerns. And so I really didn't want to be a part of the issue of the growing gap between science and the public. And so I turned to science communication and actually got a PhD studying science communication and focused on becoming a digital science communication practitioner. And that is what I do today. Most people know me as Dr. Raven the Science Maven. And I use music, pop culture, comedy, even fashion to communicate science and like weaving through personal narratives and hobbies to share science.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Yeah, I love it. Um, you got did you finish your PhD 2020 or 2021? I forget.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

I know it was it was it was sorry, technically 2022.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Okay. So we like it was it was uh we were on our show and you were Raven the Science Maven at that point. And I remember when you changed your handle to Dr. Raven the Science Maven, and we had a little my wife and I had a little cheer. I think we re-retweeted it. We were just so happy, and well, congratulations. Because I know it was a while ago, but I mean it's a big accomplishment.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

So thank you so much. It's sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, did I really do that? And yeah, I I guess I did, huh? Like it's it's very, it's very cool to be a part of that club.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

One of the things I wanted to touch on is uh science communication. I I feel like science is under attack every day, everywhere, everywhere in the world. And um, science communication in whatever way you can do it is really important. Like you weave in, as you said, like especially music, which is cool and pop culture, and then we've got the dogs and cats on on our side to teach science. I guess it's it's a very big question, but why is science communication near and dear to you?

Why Science Communication Builds Trust

SPEAKER_01 27:11

For me, you know, gosh, it's a kind of a deep question. Like, yeah, there's the obvious answer of science is important, everyone should know. But really, I think in its essence, science communication is a way for us to stay connected as humans. Because at the core, at its core, science is a process of discovery, it's a process of exploration, and there is so much delight and excitement that comes with that, and that is so beautiful, and to share that is something that could really bring us together. And figuring out ways to describe very complex discovery and complex, delightful achievements is what is like what a special way to bring people together in a time that we really need that the most, when we need community the most, where we need um to be reminded of our common humanity the most. So I not only see science communication as a powerful tool to share science, but also a powerful tool to connect people through through the narrative of science.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

I like that. That is a I might steal your answer when I get asked a similar question.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Please do. I would love for more people to adopt that.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Why why we do what we do with the with our with the dogs and cats teaching science. Yeah, like it's science is sometimes a hard pill to swallow for the public, can be very, you know, up in the up in the clouds, very theoretical. And that and that's in in essence, that's a very beautiful thing. Like the the knowing of all of these different parts, but bringing it in a way to explain to people is is a very specific skill set. Um, and I know like we follow you on on Instagram, and I know you do reels on it all the time. The importance of scientists learning how to be good science communicators, because not every scientist is taught how. Um I was wondering if you could just speak about that, because it seems like it's a passion of yours.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

It's a huge passion of mine, you know, and it it stems from my, I call it my villain origin story, right? You know, because it was kind of diabolical what happened to me. And unfortunately, I'm not alone in this story, but I'll tell my story and it will paint a broader picture of what's happening at a larger scale. When I applied to PhD programs, I applied to two programs. I applied to at one school of university at Buffalo, their biology PhD program, and then I applied to their science education PhD program. And I, again, was very excited to apply to both of the programs. If you can look at my resume, you could see why. You know, I'm equally as invested in biological research, molecular research as I am in understanding education and communication. They both are just so important to me. And so I applied to both of the programs with the exact same amount of enthusiasm. And so I ended up making it to the final rounds of these admission processes for these programs. And when it what it came down to was I was accepted into the science education PhD program with a with a prestigious fellowship and rejected from the biology PhD program solely because I had an interest in studying science communication along with my molecular research. And they felt as though it would be a distraction as a student in a biology program to be interested in communication, to be interested in education. Now that's crazy to actually deny someone who is interested in sharing the research that is being done at the institution to a broader audience to bring awareness to the research. And so I was really like heavily impacted by that because it felt very unfair, it felt very wrong and very backwards, and I couldn't actually believe that that happened. And so, you know, I ended up finishing the PhD in science education. I had an amazing experience. I actually wouldn't change a thing about what happened to me because I grew a second brain in the social sciences, which is incredibly important when you're learning about best practices in science communication. But I actually received an apology letter from one of the people on the admissions committee from the biology PhD program because they realized that they were wrong and that they did, they personally did not agree with the rest of the committee in their decision to reject me from the program. And I in that moment realized there is a systematic issue here. We have faculty who are interested in science communication, there, but there's no consensus that that is important. There's there's not enough of a consensus that that should be a valuable part of a scientific career, enough so that they're actually rejecting students on the premise that they want to communicate their science. It's crazy. And the apology letter came around the time that COVID hit, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

I think that people were gravely reminded of the importance of effective and impactful science communication. And so I know that I am not the only person who has had this experience. There are many students who are told to never express any type of external interest to pure research, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:25

And put your head down, do the research, run the numbers, write the papers, that's it.

Training Scientists To Communicate

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Exactly, exactly. And unfortunately, as valuable as research is, if it doesn't leave the boundaries of these institutions, as far as a communication sense, then we are fueling a gap between science and the public. Because yes, science positively impacts the public, but if the public doesn't draw any meaning from the science because no one has crafted that narrative that actually matters to them, then what actually does it mean to them? It means nothing. They're gonna just believe whatever is the most digestible, whoever from whoever sounds the most confident. And so, why can't those confident and accessible people be scientists? So that's what I champion. I believe that we should not be graduating people who can just do science. We should be graduating people who can do and share science with others that are not in our fields, because that is how we're going to do a part in fixing this huge issue of misinformation, of lack of public trust in science, etc. All of the attacks on science are really grounded in that gap that we, you know, as we as a scientific community have contributed to. But it can get solved, and it's gonna take an investment from institutions, from individuals to actually champion this change.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Yeah, for every for every one Dr. Raven, the science maven, there's 10 Yahoos on TikTok spouting nonsense that get millions of views, you know?

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, that's true. And we've we've got to ourselves, we've gotta bunker down and get ready for that. It's here. First and foremost, I put out music, like danceable science music that was communicating about antibodies and vaccines and personal hygiene. And that's really approachable. Music is like a universal language, it's hard to hear something catchy and not get up, right? And start dancing and be open and receptive to what you're hearing.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Didn't one of your songs get to Saturday Night Live? Is that am I remembering that right? Oh my god, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

That's amazing. I cannot believe it. Yeah, Maya Rudolph sang a riff of one of my songs, and it was very cute. And I was honored and mortified that that my content has reached such a large audience that like it Psycom works. But like on that note, I I was severely impacted by COVID. I got long COVID, and a lot of my communication about COVID was woven through a personal narrative of a lived experience. And I think what made that really effective and kind of cut down on like any backlash was that people understood that I was a real person with like a real life and a real story. And any science that I was presenting is like, hey guys, this is what happened to me. And I'm explaining what happened to me. Like, I'm not telling you what to do, but like look at me and you can kind of decide for yourself how you're gonna, you know, what information you want to relate to, or how you wanna what do you want to take away from my situation and the science that you've learned from it. So it I think that it's hard to do that if you don't have a personal narrative, right? A lot of people are just kind of screaming out into the void facts, facts, which is great, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:12

It's the it's as you said, you how you frame the it's storytelling. Yeah, it's framing the story of science, and that's what you're really, really good at, and good science communicators can can do that. That's why people go to the movies, like they want to hear the story. That's right. I don't know what the the solution is, aside from having amazing voices like yours poking at the institutions to you know to think about having some science communication training for our scientists that are in the works. Is there any movement there? Have you seen any change in the last few years, or is it still an ongoing work project?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

I think that there are programs that have emerged in the last five years since the onset of the pandemic, and those are really impressive. I've been seeing more science communication courses pop up. I've been seeing actual degree programs pop up. But what I really want to see is the standard of practice change for all of science, where we are just like engineers have to take an ethics class and a communications class to get their degrees. We now know that scientists also have a shared responsibility of protecting the public as a means, well, by being able to communicate and understanding the social context in which they're doing their science and what those impacts are. And not only do we need that to protect the public, but also to protect our careers. As you know, you've you've seen us in the US, we have cut a lot of funding to science. And a lot of that has been successful because people in science careers aren't necessarily prepared to take up space and use their voices in the way that we need to advocate for ourselves. And a lot of that boils down to science communication and making sure the public understands the importance of scientific funding and research as well as the policymakers. So, yeah, there's a lot of work to do, but I I have seen a lot of progress, but we need we need much more done a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

I feel a lot better about things talking to you. So thanks for having this little conversation about science communication with me. I appreciate it. Can we talk about the new podcast that you're on? I was just scrolling through Instagram and I missed it. I'm so sorry. Uh, you're hosting a Pfizer podcast. What the heck's going on with that? That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yes. So I am so excited to share that my partner and I, Dr. Ronald Gamble, who is a NASA theoretical astrophysicist, and we are co-hosting Pfizer's fifth season of the podcast called Science Will Win. And it is a podcast that explores the groundbreaking discoveries in medicine, and it does it through a scientific lens, a personal lens, and with a lot of fun and jokes and just humanity weaved in there. And it's very much on brand for me. This past season was all about like we covered molecular glues, we covered multi-specific antibodies, we covered maternal vaccination, etc. And so, yeah, I'm you can listen to it. It's on anywhere you listen to your podcasts, and it's called Science Will Win.

Pandemic Lessons And Personal Narrative

SPEAKER_04 40:48

I love it. Okay, we'll make sure there's uh a link in the show notes. I got burnt out doing my show by myself and and like my wife, my partner, joined me last year. So we do kind of the preamble together, and it's been super fun. So having you know a co-host to bounce stuff off of has gotta be more fun than just you talking into the void, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Isn't it fun to work with your partner though?

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Like it's been I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah, I'm glad that you guys get to do that together.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

We have to be careful because I don't know if you have this problem, but my wife and I do, where we have little in jokes that make no sense in context when somebody's listening. They're like that, because you know, they're it's a the context isn't there for the wide audience. It's like, oh yeah, we gotta explain that because that happened last Tuesday and nobody knows.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

So exactly. Like you have your own language that you speak with your partner, and then you forget the rest of the world exists. I've been there.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

There you go. I do want to mention you you also have uh another podcast called the Science of Life Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Absolutely. I call the science of life my virtual rabbit hole where I invite other people along on my journey of questioning literally everything, but through a scientific lens, right? And so, like we have talked about everything from insect mating practices to animal calls, to the origins of life, to like physics, and it's just a fun way to talk about things that I don't know with people who do know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Oh man, I can listen to experts talk about the area of science. Like, if you want to just talk to me about molecular biology for an hour, I'll just sit here and just listen. Like, it's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Isn't it like uh I I wish that we could have like a summer camp full of scientists and we all just sit around the campfire every night and just talking and laughing.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

That would be that would be long conversations into the night. You'd need a lot of more exactly, and that's also on multiple podcast podcast places, hey?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yes, anywhere you can do your podcast.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

I do want to highlight some of your charitable work. You have the science haven, and then right before we started recording, you mentioned there might be something else I missed there. So I was I I'm just curious to hear what's what's happened with that part of your life.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yes, so in the past few years, in 2022, I established a nonprofit called the Science Haven. And it's a obviously a play on my work name, which is the Science Maven. But ultimately, I kind of foresaw that science was going to be under, you know, the exact attack that it's under today, which is very strong. It was already happening back then, but the reason why I named it The Haven was because I felt that there would be a need for a safe place for people to, you know, be advocate for science. And so I love being the founder. And president of the Science Haven. We have a flagship initiative called Stellar Dreams, in which we aim to get 100 telescopes to 100 different.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

I remember this post now. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

And so we have been successful in that. We did a kickoff event in Buffalo, New York, and it was amazing, incredible. Kid happy kids. I mean, like just seeing the joy in kids' eyes when they look through their own telescope that they get to take home and see the moon and the planets was just incredible. And so we're looking to spread that joy across the country. Yeah, so that's the science haven. We do small projects with big impacts.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Love it. Very cool. Very cool. I do, I do know that you are a pet lover just like us, a family. It's and it's been a while since we've chatted. I'm wondering if there's anything new on that front or if you have any new pet stories you could share.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Pet stories? Oh my gosh. Well, you know, I have a toy poodle named Carbon. And he's just a smart dog.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

I mean, I've been in some of your videos, hey?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

He is in some of my videos. And I've been trying to teach him science, so maybe our dogs need to connect so that they can get the inside scoop in the canine language.

SPEAKER_04 45:22

Oh, well, if you if carbon meets Bernoulli, he'll just get Bernoulli's bad habits. He's a goober.

unknown 45:28

Oh no. No.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

Yeah, he's a good boy, but he's a goober.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

How long have you had carbon for? I've had carbon for about four years now.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

Okay, so he's new then. That's what I was thinking. I didn't think when we talked the last time carbon was part of your life.

New Podcast: Science Will Win

SPEAKER_01 45:49

So oh my god. It's hard to imagine a time where he wasn't, but I guess not. Yeah, if it's been five years, then no. No. There is one last thing that I would love to share. Um, I have a petition posted on change.org, and you can get a link to it by going to make science make sense.com.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

And it is a petition to mandate accreditors to require a science communication component and public engagement component to every science degree program in our country.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

And so this benefits everyone. And I highly encourage anyone listening to please sign the petition. I would love to get like at least a thousand signatures. I'm almost at a thousand. I have to check today, but the more the merrier. And the plan is to take this petition and show it to people who are in power to change and mandate these changes to these institutions of higher education. If we can get more people to show that they care about this and that this is important for the future of our country, I mean, the easier it will be to impact change. So go to make science makes sense.com and please sign my petition. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

Anyone can sign. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Oh, I was just saying anybody can sign.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

Well, make sure we have that in the show notes to the podcast. So folks who are listening, there'll be a little link uh in the show notes. Thank you. You bet. As as we close, I this might be you might have to keep some of this close to the chest, but you you have a lot of things on the go. Is there anything site exciting coming up that you can tell us about that you're excited about happening with your your life or career?

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Gosh, I mean I am writing a children's book.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Oh, yeah. Okay, can you talk to a little bit about that? That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

No, I can't talk about it yet.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

It was gonna be one of these things.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

I know, but I I just trust me, if I could, I would. I'm very excited about it. I I love the way that it's illustrated. I wrote the story, obviously, and like just can't wait to finally get something out there for for kids. Yeah, so yeah, that's that's something that's on the horizon.

SPEAKER_04 48:18

Have a working title, or can you tell us when it will be out? Or are both of those still? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

But I'm very excited, and yeah, I you know, you guys, if you guys keep up with me on social media, I'm Raven the Science Maven on most platforms. And you can keep up with all of my shenanigans there.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

You betcha. We'll make sure we have links to Raven the Science Maven on Instagram and you're also on Twitter. Are you on Facebook as well?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

I am, yes. And my website is thescienaven.com.

SPEAKER_04 48:55

You bet. It was a pleasure to talk to you again, and thanks for giving up some of your busy, busy time to chat with us again on the science podcast.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Of course, Jason. Thank you for having me again.

Partnering, Burnout, And Co‑Hosting

SPEAKER_04 49:05

That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the science podcast. And a shout out to all the top dogs. That's the top tier of our Patreon community, The Popack. You can sign up in our show notes. All right, Chris, let's hear those names that are part of the top dogs.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Amelia Fettig, Ree Oda, Carol Hano, Jennifer Challon, Linnea Janet, Karen Cronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy Walker, Sarah Bram, Wendy Diane, Mason Ann Blue, Helen Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois, Marianne McNally, Katherine Jordan, Shelly Smith, Laura Steffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Ann Uchida, Heather Burbach, Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben Rather, Debbie Anderson, Sandy Primer, Mary Raider, Bianca Hyde, Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark, Brianne Hawts, Peggy McKeel, Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, Susan Wagner, and Liz Button.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Let's go adventure in the deep blue sea.