Episode 13 Season 7: The Science of Fluoride, Fancy Cats, and guest Dr. Katie Burnette

On this show we explore the contentious debate around fluoride in municipal water, the science behind pedigree cat adoptions, and innovative approaches to teaching science to non-science majors.

• Examination of the fluoride controversy using Calgary, Alberta as a case study
• Discussion of how fluoride strengthens tooth enamel and prevents acid damage
• Review of research showing increased tooth decay rates in children after fluoride was removed from Calgary's water
• Analysis of a study suggesting people with higher status sensitivity are less likely to adopt non-pedigree cats
• Interview with Dr. Katie Burnette about cat genetics and why most calico cats are female
• Exploration of X chromosome inactivation and how it creates unique coat patterns
• Insight into developing engaging science curriculum for non-science majors
• Discussion of a DNA-based project identifying fish fraud at restaurants
• Personal pet stories including cats bringing "gifts" into the home

Dr. Burnette's Links:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Katie-Burnette

Our links:

Our Website!  www.bunsenbernerbmd.com

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Transcript

Introduction to the Science Podcast

Speaker 1 0:09

Hello science enthusiasts . I'm Jason Zukoski .

Speaker 2 0:12

And I'm Chris Zukoski .

Speaker 1 0:14

We're the pet parents of Bunsen , beaker , bernoulli and Ginger .

Speaker 2 0:18

The science animals on social media .

Speaker 1 0:21

If you love science .

Speaker 2 0:22

And you love pets .

Speaker 1 0:24

You've come to the right spot , so put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail .

Speaker 1 0:29

This is the Science Podcast . Hello and welcome back to the Science Podcast . We hope you're happy and healthy out there . This is episode 13 of season 7 . We didn't get an episode out last week .

Speaker 1 0:42

It was a crazy busy back-to-school week for Chris and I after the holiday and we just ran out of energy and time . We had some things we signed up for During the week . I had to prep for a science show on Saturday for the Tim Horton Smile Cookie Day , and that just proved too much running around to get this podcast done . So we appreciate your patience , but we've got a really good show for you guys today . All right , in science news , we're going to talk about some of the controversy around fluoride in water using a case study of a city very close to us , Calgary , Alberta , Canada . In pet science , we're going to look at a study that tried to answer the question would folks who fancy themselves fancy be more inclined to get fancy cats for adoption ? Well , I guess you have to wait and see Our guest and ask . An expert is Dr Katie Burnett , who's an academic coordinator , and we have a really cool discussion about some

Fluoride in Water: Benefits and Controversy

Speaker 1 1:42

of the things happening in higher education to teach people who are not necessarily scientists , science .

Speaker 1 1:48

Okay , on with the show . There's no time like Science Time . This week in science news , Chris , I think it's time to go to the dentist . Do you know what time that is ? Tooth hurty ? Yeah , it's tooth hurty .

Speaker 1 2:04

It's tooth hurty that that's right that's funny yeah , I have to say I am not a super big fan of going to the dentist . It is , it's okay , but it's not something I look forward to . There's a lot of poking and prodding around my teeth and things don't taste good and I got to keep my mouth open really wide . Luckily I have fairly good teeth and I haven't had a lot of cavities in my life .

Speaker 2 2:33

No , every time you go I say hey , how many cavities do you have ? And you say none .

Speaker 1 2:41

I have had cavities .

Speaker 2 2:43

I know you have , but I go and it's like you have some major work to do in there and it's like what ? And when you go , it's perfect . It's a little bit unfair .

Speaker 1 2:57

So this science news item hits really close to home because it's all about the fluoride debate , typically using Calgary as a case study , and Calgary is the city just south of us , by a little more than an hour . It's one of the two big cities in our province of Alberta .

Speaker 2 3:17

The reason why this is topical and we're talking about it is because it's a bit controversial the debate about whether fluoride should be added to municipal drinking water or not . In 2011 , calgary stopped adding fluoride to the municipal drinking water and they recently reinstated it . Now , I say recent , that was 2021 . But it was based on a decision that reversed their original decision to stop adding fluoride to the drinking water .

Speaker 1 3:51

So if we look at some of the support for fluoride , remember sorry not to get into some chemistry , but people confuse fluorine and fluoride all the time . Fluorine is a halogen gas F2 . It is one of the most deadly and dangerous gases in the halogen family . But when fluorine becomes an ion , it's called fluoride and that can be bonded to many different things . Fluoride , like chloride , is pretty much harmless , which is weird because chlorine gas is extremely dangerous . But when you turn chlorine into chloride it's safe . Fluoride combines with calcium and phosphate in your mouth and in your teeth to strengthen your enamel . Fluoride helps prevent acid damage from the bacteria in our mouth . This helps support overall oral health . The Americans the CDC recommends 0.7 milligrams of fluoride per liter of water . As of 2022 , 63% of Americans have access to fluoridated water . As of 2022 , 63% of Americans have access to fluoridated water .

Speaker 2 5:07

Right , so it sounds great coming right out of the science there , but there has been opposition and definitely some controversy with fluoridation , and some of this longstanding opposition comes from claims about tooth staining or bone cancer and , additionally , that if you fluoridate the water , that means you're putting medicine in the water , which goes against individual rights and freedoms . And more recently there has been concerns about adding fluoride to the water causes a lower IQ in children , and so this is based on high exposure studies , but the fluoride in the studies was much higher than the amount that they're adding to fluoridated water .

Speaker 1 5:57

And it was an association . It wasn't a confirmation . You have to be very careful with associations because those are not confirmed . Those are not confirmed . Causes like above 1.5 milligrams per liter was what the study was testing , which is way above what's in drinking water . Did that really harm the IQ ?

Speaker 2 6:21

And it didn't confirm it . No , but despite having this weak evidence , the anti-fluoride movements are growing . Utah banned fluoridation in March of 2025 , so that's very recent and Robert F Kennedy Jr in the States plans to withdraw CDC recommendations If you're wondering about Canada .

Speaker 1 6:43

It's really dependent on provinces . Our province , chris , only 43% of the water is fluoridated , with Ontario being the highest at 73 . The lowest is the Yukon and Newfoundland and Labrador at 0% . 0% of their water is fluoridated .

Speaker 2 7:00

And that's interesting and I want to talk about those research findings that were in Calgary .

Speaker 2 7:05

So they did speak to a pediatric dentist and Dr Warren Lopke is a pediatric dentist in Calgary for more than 20 years and he reported a rise in aggressive and severe tooth decay in children over the past decade and many children actually require treatment under general anesthesia as opposed to other measures because of the extensive damage that has been done to their teeth . And so , having said that , talking about Dr Warren Loebke , there is some recent research findings in Calgary . Jason Lindsay McClendon is a University of Calgary researcher and they studied second grade children in Calgary , non-fluoridated versus Edmonton children which have access to fluoridation ended , and what they found was interesting 65% of those children had tooth decay versus 55% in Edmonton . And you may say , huh , 65 , 55 , that's pretty close . No , statistically , that's a statistically significant difference when you're looking at putting that through and applying it to the population . And one thing they looked at because you did mention , you can't say this is the direct cause . They did look at diet and socioeconomic status and that in itself did not explain the difference .

Speaker 1 8:47

So you could . You might say , oh , maybe people in Calgary , those kids ate sugary snacks or they were from poor families , which is has a lot of correlation to health outcomes , and the answer is no . Also , in a 2024 study in the same area , Calgary had roughly double the amount of kids that went under general anesthesia for severe tooth decay .

Speaker 2 9:10

And I just think of our Adam versus our Duncan . We lived in Red Deer when we had Duncan growing up and he would have had access to fluoridated water , whereas when we moved on the farm , we're on well water which doesn't have fluoride in it and we definitely noticed a difference . Now again , it's a population of one kid A population of one kid can't necessarily generalize this for all , but Adam definitely had worse tooth issues or tooth issues .

Speaker 1 9:41

He had way worse tooth issues .

Speaker 2 9:43

Yeah , he had a double pulpotpotomy which is like a root canal , and he lost his first two , his front two teeth yeah , I remember that he had .

Speaker 1 9:51

It was a rough time for him . We're not going to go through it . But all these findings parallel what happened in juneau , alaska , after fluoridation was ended . They had noticed high rates of childhood dental procedures after the removal of the fluoride , and the fluoride in both cases were removed , probably mostly because when the populace voted on it , or it was just decided upon , it was decided on not great science . And this brings us to only a few years ago in Calgary , in 2021 . What happened , chris ?

Speaker 2 10:29

The Calgarians . The residents there voted to reintroduce fluoride . 62% voted yes , which is a stronger majority than the original 1989 approval , and the studies and the sustained advocacy can be credited for the shift .

Speaker 1 10:48

It doesn't always work , but if you give people good information about why and you debunk the myths , generally the population , at least in where we live , are online with it . So , as we conclude , there is very weak evidence that fluoride levels are bad for you and there's good evidence , both historically and lately , that fluoridation of water is helpful for teeth , especially in children and that's , and that's something that we can smile about because the last thing you want is to have your appointment at 2.30 .

Speaker 2 11:25

That's right On a Thursday .

Speaker 1 11:29

All right , that's science news for this week . This

Pet Science: Do Fancy People Want Fancy Cats?

Speaker 1 11:33

week in pet science , let's talk about some fancy cats , or people who think they're fancy . Who fancy cats Fancy people who fancy fancy cats . Am I on cats ? Fancy people who fancy fancy cats . Am I on the right track with this study ?

Speaker 2 11:48

You are . You're on the right track , and we generally don't call the cats fancy . We say that they have a pedigree , they're pedigree cats .

Speaker 1 11:57

Oh , okay , pedigree . Oh , I'm so sorry to the fancy cats out there . You have a pedigree .

Speaker 2 12:02

Ginger . After delving into this study I was thinking about hey , how did ginger come about ? Because you are allergic to cats and as much as I love cats , I was resigned to never owning another cat ever again and going over to the farmhouse and getting my cat fixed there . But we were in the pet store . Beaker and Bunsen were getting groomed for the show that they were going to and I saw Ginger in the rescue . They have Fostering hope has a rescue area for the cats that they get in and I saw ginger and Adam was with me and I said you need to come see this cat and Adam was over and we were looking and I said to him I said we have to have a method to get this cat because normally I can take them or leave them , but for her she called to me . I don't know if it was because she was so cute or just her personality , but we had to have that cat . We had to have Ginger .

Speaker 1 13:15

She doesn't have a pedigree right . It's a rescue .

Speaker 2 13:18

She's a rescue . She is a typical host cat . She's a long hair , a domestic long hair .

Speaker 1 13:25

She's cute and she's kind of unique because she's a girl cat and she's orange , which is not super common . In the study , the aim of it was to investigate whether an individual's sensitivity to social status affected their preferences for adopting non-pedigree cats . The idea was that individuals who thought themselves who had a higher status sensitivity may prefer those pedigree cats , viewing them as a status symbol and maybe finding non-pedigree cats less appealing . So the gingers of the world .

Speaker 2 14:01

Okay , but Ginger was very appealing . She's so cute . She's so cute . The sample size was 250 participants and the assessment that they used was 60 cat images . So they showed 30 pedigree and 30 non-pedigree cats and the participants rated each image on the adoptability or the likelihood of adopting the cat , and then they also rated the cuteness yes , yes , which is the perceived attractiveness of the cat .

Speaker 1 14:36

It's pretty subjective .

Speaker 2 14:38

It is pretty subjective . Do you find this cat cute ? Yes , they did complete two questionnaires which measured the perceived status attainment , which is a PSA the personal sense of achieved social status , and also it rated the status aspirations SA and that can be likened to a desire to attain higher social status . Be likened to a desire to attain higher social status .

Speaker 1 15:05

So you self-identify as a fancy pants and then they take the data on if you like the cat or not , find it cute or not and I think they're going to put them together right .

Speaker 2 15:17

So there are key findings for the adoptability ratings Participants with the higher PSA and SA scores , the higher perceived status attainment and the status aspirations . They were less inclined to adopt non-pedigree cats . But interestingly that reluctance did not correspond to a higher preference for pedigree cats . They just were like no cat for me .

Speaker 1 15:46

Oh , interesting .

Speaker 2 15:52

And then the cuteness perception . The higher status sensitivity correlated with lower cuteness ratings for non-pedigree cats . They were like you're not cute , You're non-pedigree . I'm a higher status individual , but for pedigree cats the cuteness ratings remain stable across varying perceived status attainment scores , as well as the higher status aspiration scores , slightly increased with the perceived cuteness of the cat .

Speaker 1 16:21

Interesting cat Interesting . So I don't know what we can really interpret from this . That wouldn't hurt people's feelings , but it appears the preference for pedigree cats among status sensitive individuals suggests that those pets may serve as an extension of their social identity . Like , you , have this pedigree cat and that says something about you and you're important and it is important to you how others perceive you as being high status . So that's that pedigree cat is a status symbol . I never thought of a pet as being a status symbol . I know we've got Bernice Mountain Dogs and Golden Retriever , but I just love Bernice Mountain Dogs and Golden Ret retrievers . I don't see them as oh boy , hoity-toity me . Look at my dogs right .

Speaker 2 17:11

No , what we were concerned about was getting a puppy that would imprint on us and that we could train in the way that we would like to train them . And so what this study with the cat can show is that there's reasons that people select animals beyond just mere attachment . So there's other factors , other than the emotional attachment and looking for companionship , that play a role in pet adoption decisions .

Speaker 1 17:41

Yeah , if we want pets to be adopted , I'm sure this study could be helpful to shelters to goose the algorithm towards those people with . The higher they're more sensitive to status . I don't know what they would do . Be like ooh , ginger is a pet . They could just say all the cats are pedigree . They could say they're like descendant from , like a show cat .

Speaker 2 18:06

That'd be a little dishonest but it might get more cats adopted ginger was going to be adopted no matter what , because she definitely called to me and , like I said , any other cat , I could take her leave . But there's just something about that cat that we now know and love .

Speaker 3 18:24

Yeah .

Speaker 1 18:25

All right , everybody . That's Pet Science for this week . Hello everybody , here's some ways you can keep the Science Podcast free . Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community . It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science . We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community . It's tons of fun . Also , think about checking out our merch store . We've got the Bunsen stuffy , the Beaker stuffy and now the Ginger stuffy . That's right , ginger , the science cat , has a little replica . It's adorable . It's so soft , with the giant fluffy tail , safety glasses and a lab coat . And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts , give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too . Okay , on with the show .

Speaker 1 19:18

Back to the interviews .

Interview with Dr. Katie Burnett

Speaker 1 19:20

It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast , and I have Dr Katie Burnett , academic Coordinator , with us today . Doc , how are you doing ? I'm great , good , good . Where are you calling into the show from ? Where are you in the world ?

Speaker 3 19:35

So I am at the University of California Riverside in Riverside , california . For those who don't know , it's east of LA .

Speaker 1 19:43

Riverside , California . For folks who don't know it's east of LA .

Speaker 3 19:54

East of LA , we were chatting right before I hit record that it is sunny and 66 Fahrenheit . Did I get that right ?

Speaker 1 19:58

Yes , yep , sunny and reasonably warm for winter , 19 Celsius for Canadians and the rest of the world . So yeah , that would be very balmy for us . Very fun . I introduced you as Dr Burnett . What's going on there ? What's your education in science ?

Speaker 3 20:16

Let's see . So I have a PhD in genetics . I graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with that degree . I also worked as a postdoc studying genomics and aging using nematode worms . Oh cool , yeah , which is fun . It's much easier to study aging in worms than people , because an old nematode is five days old , so you can get a lot of information really fast .

Speaker 1 20:46

Very cool . When you were young , was science a path that you thought you'd be on ? Were you the little kid mixing potions and wondering about the world ?

Speaker 3 20:53

I was a little kid . Doing weird science-y stuff like this is embarrassing . My mom hopefully doesn't listen to this . I was probably I don't know six or seven and I knew that flowers had or needed pollen . So I happily scraped a bunch of pine tree pollen into a bucket and mix it with water and was blopping it and all the flowers and my mom's flower bed because I thought it would help her have more flowers . And I did most of the front yard before she stopped me because I was dropping this like muddy pollen goop all over her flowers . So yeah , I was a kid that always loved science-y stuff . Yeah .

Speaker 1 21:32

And then the path to genetics . What was the ? What happened ? Was there a flashpoint in your life that caused you ? Yeah ?

Speaker 3 21:41

Yeah . So I knew I wanted to study science and I liked biology and I went to Western Washington University up in Washington State and I took genetics and that professor , dr Jeff Young he's just retired he said I'm looking for students to come do research and I think you would . I think you'd be good at it . So I got an inn doing research when I was an undergrad and I loved it , absolutely loved it , and a lot of science isn't particularly glamorous . We were doing studies with Arabidopsis thaliana plants . It's one of the model organisms .

Speaker 3 22:19

There was a lot of money trying to figure out what all the genes in its genome did and that sounded super cool . But you start with things like you gotta autoclave some soil to put your plants in and then you you got a little a bunch of little plastic stakes to know what went in each pot . So a lot of science is spending a lot of time labeling things , believe it or not . But it was really fun . He's the one who encouraged me to go to graduate school and I have him to thank for really launching me .

Speaker 1 22:46

That's a sweet story . Some of the kids I'm a high school science teacher , chem teacher , my day job and I'm I teach . One of the subjects I teach is that some of the younger kids , the grade nines in our honors program and you can see the kids when we get to genetics in the biology unit with like Punnett squares , something like clicks in their brain that like the thing that makes them and the stuff and everything that's alive . There's a code for them and it's potentially predictable , at least at that point in a very simple Punnett square and it's magical . Because those are the kids that I'm like oh okay , that kid this really jived with . They're all in on the genetics part of biology .

Speaker 3 23:31

Yeah , no , I love teaching . So for my day job now I'm an academic coordinator , which means I design lab curriculum for undergraduate students and for our non-major students .

Speaker 3 23:42

So this is a class for students who are majoring in something else . They're going to be engineers , they're going to be historians , they're going to be dance majors . They just need to take a science . I'm not going to make them become a science major , but we do a project where the ability to taste or not taste the bitter chemical PTC is coded in your DNA and there's two main alleles that are versions of a gene , whether or not you can taste or not taste this chemical . And if you can taste it , it usually means you really don't like bitter vegetables like kale or Brussels sprouts , broccoli , all the things that are like good for you . Because we're told we're supposed to eat lots of leafy greens and dark leafy greens are even better , and so they . We do a lab where they can actually extract DNA from their own cheek cells , amplify it and determine which version of the gene they have .

Speaker 1 24:33

Oh wow , that's so cool .

Speaker 3 24:34

It's really fun . They love it because you learn something about yourself . You learn something about why you may or may not have liked broccoli as a child .

Speaker 1 24:42

Oh man Can you imagine finding out you're genetically don't like broccoli and your parents were like you need to eat your broccoli .

Speaker 3 24:52

You feel so vindicated . No , this is biology and evolution are trying to protect me from eating bitter things and because , in nature , bitter things are often poisonous yeah so this is my genes trying to protect me from eating things that taste bad obviously there was a selective advantage to those people not eating poison .

Speaker 1 25:11

back in the day they were like the super tasters for poison or something .

Speaker 3 25:15

Indeed , but with plant domestication you don't have to worry about being poisoned from the broccoli from your grocery store . But you still don't have to like it . It still might taste pretty bad .

Speaker 1 25:26

I have long waged a war against kale , so I'm wondering if I'm one of those people .

Speaker 3 25:32

You might be .

Speaker 1 25:34

So , with genetics beyond and we'll maybe talk a little bit more about your current position what are some things in genetics that you just get super excited about , to talk to folks about , or that you like to know ?

Speaker 3 25:45

Oh , so I love talking about the genetics of cats . Okay , I have four cats . I'm fostering four kittens right now . They're living on our catio .

Speaker 1 25:55

Oh , wow .

Speaker 3 25:56

And I love the fact that . So here's a question for you . Cats that have orange and black fur we call them calico cats . Have you ever seen a calico dog ?

Speaker 1 26:06

An orange dog .

Speaker 3 26:07

Orange and black together .

Speaker 1 26:09

Aren't like Australian shepherds , like a bit of orange , I don't know .

Speaker 3 26:12

Yeah , yeah , or newly , he's got orange eyebrows and black fur .

Speaker 1 26:16

That's right , he does , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 3 26:19

So there's a gene that controls fur color and it's conserved across mammals . But in cats it's weird that if a cat has orange and black fur , it's 99.9% of the time it's female . You never get a male cat that's both orange and black . They'll either be orange or black , but not both . Female cats can be any of them . You can have a female cat with orange fur , like your ginger black fur , or orange and black . Orange fur , like your ginger black fur or orange and black .

Speaker 3 26:54

And it's fascinating because the gene that controls fur color is not on a sex chromosome , but fur color is inherited , as if it's linked to the X chromosome .

Speaker 3 27:04

Yeah , yeah , so just so .

Speaker 3 27:06

Cats , just like people , their sex determination is an XY system . So all female cats have two X chromosomes and all male cats have an X and a Y , so like people , and they also have , just like in humans , in females one of those X chromosomes gets silenced or

Cat Genetics and Coloration Explained

Speaker 3 27:24

turned off , so one of the chromosomes will be active and one will be inactive , and it varies in different parts of your body , like it's just random which cell gets turned off very early in embryonic development . And so with female cats with two X chromosomes , if one chromosome has the black fur color and the other has the orange fur color , turning one copy off . If you turn off the black fur version , then the cat will get orange fur in that spot . If you turn off orange fur , then it'll have black . So that's how you get the patches .

Speaker 3 28:00

Human women actually have patches like that too . We just don't have fur . So you can't see the fact that we actually have every cell in our body . The X chromosome has been inactivated in one copy or the other randomly throughout , throughout our bodies , which is fascinating .

Speaker 1 28:15

So it doesn't seem to like birth marks , does it , or am I ?

Speaker 3 28:18

I don't know I know that it is linked to sweat glands , so you can have parts of your skin as a woman that are sweatier than others .

Speaker 1 28:28

Oh man .

Speaker 3 28:29

And that's due to X chromosome inactivation .

Speaker 1 28:32

Okay .

Speaker 3 28:32

Yeah , so with cats , then if you look at a cat and if you know if it's male or female , you can know something about its parents or something about its kittens . So we had a female cat who has orange and black fur . Her name is now Rosie . We've adopted her , but she showed up at our backyard , under our shed , with five kittens . Because I'm a huge sucker for cats , I was like I guess we're going to feed you . My husband said , if we feed them , you know what's going to happen . Right , we're going to end up keeping at least one . We also ended up designing and building an entire enclosure for our back porch , so it's like a 20 foot wide covered porch and now it is a catio cat enclosure .

Speaker 3 29:18

So Rosie's orange and black and her kittens . She has one orange male kitten and can we determine what color is his dad and then she also has one female kitten that's orange and black , just like the mom , and then three more black and white kittens . So we'll get to those in a minute . Just like in humans , you get your sex chromosomes from your parents . So you get one X chromosome from your mom Everyone has one X chromosome and then your dad gives you either an X or a Y . So that means Rosie could pass on because she is orange and black , either the black version X chromosome or the orange version . And the orange male kitten he got a Y chromosome from his dad . So that just tells us that dad is a cat , dad is a male cat and that's it . We don't know what he looks like . Not helpful , not informative .

Speaker 3 30:10

One of the tuxedo kittens black and white is also a boy , but he got the X chromosome from mom and dad is dad Y chromosome , so also not helpful . Okay , great , let's look at the kitten that's orange and black . She could have gotten either the black or the orange from mom and either black or orange from dad . So again , or the orange from mom and either black or orange from dad . So again , doesn't help . The kittens that tell us what dad looks like are the black and white female kittens . They had to get a black version of the x-cobasome from mom and from dad , so dad is a tuxedo cat . Some of the babies also have white , white markings on them . The mom doesn't , so that means dad also has to have white markings on them . The mom doesn't , so that means dad also has to have white toes because of how that is inherited .

Speaker 1 30:54

You were writing your own punnet . Squares on the little kittens .

Speaker 3 30:57

Yep , I was A kitten shows up in my yard , I'm like all right , what's your genetic history ? Yeah , it's really quite fun . I use the genetics of cat color to teach about how sex chromosomes are inherited , because it works the same in cats as it does in people . So I find it really quite fun . And yes , another caveat to this is female cats if they encounter more than one tomcat , they will breed with all of them , so the kittens might not all have the same dad .

Speaker 1 31:28

Similar to dogs .

Speaker 3 31:29

Yeah , similar to dogs , so there might be more than one dad involved , but at minimum there has to be one . Dad with a tuxedo cat dad . Yeah , just like dogs .

Speaker 1 31:39

That's so interesting with cat genetics that way , because it's so cut and dry . If you think of humans , for example , with hair color , skin color , it's a little more complicated right .

Speaker 3 31:49

Humans , for example , with hair color skin color .

Speaker 1 31:50

It's a little bit more complicated right ?

Speaker 3 31:51

Yes , very much . There are many genes that contribute to pigmentation for human eye color , hair color , skin color , and it's also there's a lot of environment involved . So if you spend a lot of time out in the sun , your hair will get bleached out , it'll lose some of its pigment and your skin might darken or you might get freckles . So freckles actually is a simple inheritance in humans . It's one of very few traits that are what we call Mendelian inheritance , where there's one main contributing gene and two alleles . Having freckles is the dominant version . If you have one version of the gene that says you're going to get freckles , you can get freckles , but if you don't spend time in the sun , you don't get freckles . So freckles are actually from a little bit of sun damage .

Speaker 1 32:43

Oh , man Yep . And if you get covered in freckles , is that like you got two dominant genes , you got super freckles .

Speaker 3 32:50

That's a great question . I'm not sure , but covered in freckles all over , you'd probably have to be like nude sunbathing or something like that , because , like I said , if you spent all your time indoors or covered up really well and wore a bunch of sunscreen , you wouldn't get freckles , even if , genetically , you could get freckles .

Speaker 1 33:09

Oh , my goodness , it's like's like changing paint that you go outside with . Yeah , pretty much wild . Okay , so that's the genetics of calicos , you ? You said something and maybe I could just ask a clarifying question . We've had people comment quite a few times , with ginger being an orange cat yeah , they probably think ginger's a boy right . What's going on with that ? Because they're you . Just , I thought you said that cats can be orange and they can be female , or is that ?

Speaker 3 33:42

yeah , they can . The version of the gene or the allele for orange fur is not as common as the allele for black fur . So to get a male orange cat , that means his mom can be either a calico , orange , and black or orange . So there's two ways to get a male orange cat . Dad can be any color , it doesn't matter because he only gets the Y chromosome from dad . To get an orange female cat , the dad has to be orange and the mom has to either be orange herself or a calico that passes on the orange chromosome .

Speaker 1 34:17

The orange part right .

Speaker 3 34:18

Yeah , the orange part . So both parent cats have to have at least some orange fur and it's just less common to have that in the cat population . More cats have the allele for black fur than they do for orange fur , so she's rare . Only like 20% or so of orange cats are female , so it's not zero , it's majority . They're going to be male , just because it's genetically easier to have an orange male cat .

Speaker 1 34:50

Ginger is one of a kind , so I don't know what the percentage is , but she's one unique cat Yep . But I think everybody who has cats and dogs , your cat or dog is a unique one of a kind thing .

Speaker 3 35:03

Yes , they are , yes , they are .

Speaker 1 35:05

Like currently you mentioned you're developing and designing like lab curricula for people who aren't necessarily going into science full hog .

Speaker 3 35:16

Yeah .

Speaker 1 35:16

Yeah , I talked to you might get a kick out of this , and then I like I would love to know what else you're doing there . I talked to a geologist at the University of Calgary , to south of us , and they developed a science course for the um , the sports teams .

Speaker 3 35:33

it was a geology course and they called it rocks for jocks oh my gosh , because that's like a joke saying oh , science , like science , classes for athletes are really watered down like rocks for jocks . But they actually called it rocks for jocks . I love it .

Speaker 1 35:47

They called it that , yeah , and it wasn't really watered down , it was like like what you'd probably expect , but it was just . It sounds fun . Yeah , that's the time where most of the sports teams could make it based on their playing and practicing . So , anyways , I thought you'd get a kick out of that .

Speaker 3 36:01

That is hilarious . That's like the joke about classes being like underwater basket weaving 101 . And you picture . The joke is like they show a picture of someone sitting in a swimming pool , like underwater , with basketry materials . But underwater basketry actually is a thing , but only the basket goes in the water . The whole person doesn't have to go in oh , weird .

Speaker 1 36:22

Okay , I thought it was like one of those greendale courses from community that I don't know if you've seen that tv show where they're always yeah , it's the community college oh , about the community college , yep yeah , the weird courses just to get people to go there . So ,

Teaching Science to Non-Science Majors

Speaker 1 36:37

beyond getting people's cheek cells out and finding out if they don't like bitter if they like bitter or don't like bitter vegetables what else is going on with some of your development there ?

Speaker 3 36:46

so for that class , for the non-majors , we also do exploring the science of everyday objects in your kitchen .

Speaker 1 36:53

Okay , yeah .

Speaker 3 36:53

Yeah , so the students are learning terms in science like hydrophilic , or substances that are attracted or dissolved in water , hydrophobic things that are repelled by water . They learn about solutes and solvents and ions and to really look at that . We give students things like olive oil and bubbles and water . Oh , here's a fun one . If you get a bowl of water , try sprinkling a little pinch of cinnamon on the top . Cinnamon , it's a dry powder but it has such a high oil content it's hydrophobic and it will float that if you take a little bit of a piece of soap .

Speaker 3 37:31

So soap is an interesting molecule . It's actually we call it amphipathic , so meaning that it can form bonds with things that are either really fatty , like oils or water . So soap the reason it washes stuff off of you is it's really good at binding to molecules and then being washed off with just plain water . So if you touch a bit of soap to the surface , the soap will start to dissolve on the top of the water and it'll push the cinnamon away in this like really fast reaction and then it'll spring back and yeah , so it's really quite fun . If you get a chance , get a bowl of water , sprinkle some cinnamon and poke it with a piece of soap . It's quite fun .

Speaker 1 38:15

I would imagine you have a lot of opportunity for creativity with those courses , being that your curriculum is getting people the gist of science so they can continue on with their further education .

Speaker 3 38:27

Yes , we actually . I think the most fun I had ironically was during the lockdown , when we were all on online education . Yes , we actually . I think the most fun I had ironically was during the lockdown and we were all on online education . I was doing a molecular biology for non-majors and so , oh my gosh , what are they going to be interested in learning about during online teaching and lockdown , during the pandemic , and so they're going to be interested in knowing things like what is a virus anyway ?

Speaker 3 38:52

That's when all these terms were coming out , like social distancing Okay , what does it mean and questions that students were asking like how do you develop a vaccine ? Then we were developing a vaccine and that's okay . Great , now that we have one , who gets it ? And so , talking through all of the complicated logistics and politics and ethics of where's your place in the vaccine line , it was really quite fun . I learned a lot because this was outside my field of expertise , but I was reading a lot of papers in the background , looking at a lot of news articles and coming up with stuff on the fly , and it was a really fun time to teach . I'm very glad that a lot of the questions I had are now answered , like can we get a vaccine for COVID ? Yes , we can . But yeah , it was a really interesting time in science and that was a very time to be very creative .

Speaker 1 39:48

You could even bring back the soap as the soap oh my gosh .

Speaker 3 39:51

Yeah , that's what they . We asked , like why does washing your hands ?

Speaker 1 39:53

matter .

Speaker 3 39:54

Like , why ? Why would we say , or wearing a mask if to like , why does that help ? Because people would say things like but I can smell molecules through my mask . If someone's brewing coffee , you can smell the coffee . And so they'd say smells can get through . Why would I believe it's stopping a virus ? And so they'd say , if smells can get through , why would I believe it's stopping a virus ? And so we had them look up . Okay , what molecule is in the smell that you're smelling , what's its structure , how big is it ? And then , how big is a virus ? Because a virus . Yes , they are microscopic . You cannot see them without a specialized electron microscope . We physically cannot see coffee molecule smell . So a virus is much , much larger than smell .

Speaker 1 40:37

Yeah . It's the difference between a molecule and virus is a conglomerate of- .

Speaker 3 40:44

Many proteins , many lipids .

Speaker 1 40:46

Billions of molecules , billions , maybe like a huge number .

Speaker 3 40:54

Yeah , it's billions of yeah , like a huge number . So yeah , or if the mask can block the virus , does it let oxygen in ? Yes , oxygen molecules are very small , especially compared to a virus .

Speaker 1 41:01

Yes , yeah , very cool . Is there anything else you'd like me to ask before we get to your pet story ?

Speaker 3 41:08

Okay , what was your favorite subject ? Where did you ? How did you get where you are ?

Speaker 1 41:13

Oh man , I've never had anybody asked me that , maybe . So in in high school I excelled at writing . I was a very good writer , effortlessly so , like creative writing , essay writing , all that kind of stuff . My teachers were pushing me towards law school to be a lawyer . I was a very good public speaker and I could think on my feet .

Speaker 1 41:34

But I actually loved science the most , even though my grades didn't really reflect that compared to how good I was at writing . And yeah , so it was . I don't know , it was a mixture of the wonder of science , of what we don't know that got me more interested in science . I didn't pursue as far as you did with education . I'm an undergrad and then I have two undergrads , science degree and an education degree , so that's where I get to where I'm at as a teacher . I was thinking in my science degree of pursuing it further , like to go into a master's and PhD , but what I disliked the most was the stuff that you would do , the most of which was that tedious lab work that you mentioned , and I just it puts the read research , do one , it looks great .

Speaker 1 42:25

Go back and do a hundred more to get a nice sample size yeah , a lot of respect for people that can do that , but that just wasn't for me . They were true in front of the class to talk about the findings . I was the talky funny presenter guy and then of course that leads really strongly into teaching as being inspirational to kids .

Speaker 3 42:44

Yes , absolutely . Actually . Could I tell you one more thing I happen to be doing right now , science-wise . So I also do classes for science majors and I get them as freshmen , which is fabulous because they're still . They are so excited to be at the university , to be starting science right away , and we do a project that is genetic , using genetics to look for fish fraud . So fish fraud being when a fish is sold as one species , knowing that it's actually something else and it's really common , Depending on the type of fish we're talking about , 20 to 60% of the time you're not getting what you paid for .

Speaker 1 43:27

Really .

Speaker 3 43:28

Really . Yeah , it's surprisingly common . So we have the students come in and ask them to bring a piece of fish . Go for sushi , don't eat that last bite . Bring it in , tell us what you thought it was . You extract DNA . You use a technique called PCR polymerase chain reaction to copy a region of DNA that's used as a DNA barcode , which is a region of DNA that is . We know it's found in all the fish . But if you learn the exact genetic sequence the A's , t's , g's and C's you can send that sequence to an algorithm and it'll tell you the genetic identity of exactly what you got and what you paid for and it's . I love it because this is something the students can . They do all the steps and we get a huge set of data and the last week in class they're doing presentations about what they discovered and what they learned and it is really fun .

Speaker 1 44:25

That is cool . Disappointing If you paid for an expensive fish and you got some cheapo fish . But I can see being being cut . The whoever would be like oh , they'll never know , but they'll never know .

Speaker 3 44:37

Plus you like it depends on where in the processing chain it happened . Did you ? At some point something got mislabeled and you're not really sure when ? But yeah , it's really common in fish that are lighter colored fish . So rockfish , oh . What's other common things ? Cod ? Almost never cod . Usually you're getting tilapia , okay , so you know , buy everywhere because , and honestly , most people don't know what the fish they ordered ought to look like , especially when it's like deep fried and covered in sauce .

Speaker 1 45:07

It's tasty , you eat it right yeah , like I live in alberta , canada , the nearest ocean is like a day and a half driving straight away . We have no concept of ocean fish , the only fish we earn are the fish we catch in our lakes . I would be able to tell the difference there , but if somebody's is this tilapia or cod , I'd be like I have no idea .

Speaker 3 45:26

I have no idea what you're talking about yeah , what if someone said oh , this is , uh , it's not rainbow trout , it's brown trout . Could you tell those apart ?

Speaker 1 45:35

Probably yeah .

Speaker 3 45:36

Okay , okay , so you're an expert , then that's awesome .

Speaker 1 45:38

Perch rainbow trout , brown trout we don't have a lot of here , so that'd be a struggle . Maybe with that Jackfish we have a lot of I'm not sure if that's the right name for them they're these giant fish we have .

Speaker 3 45:53

What's that I don't ?

Speaker 1 45:54

know that , I don't know that , I know . No , they're sweet , they're giant freshwater predatory fish pike .

Speaker 3 45:58

There we go oh , that I know , yeah , pike pike , we just call them jackfish this is canadian this is one of the things I teach my students is different . Like fish , the same common name can refer to different actual species and the same species can can refer to different actual species . And the same species can have many common names . So it's around the world . So here's the last anecdote . I promise you , If you saw a fish on a menu called a slimehead , would you eat it ?

Speaker 1 46:24

I don't know .

Speaker 3 46:26

Yeah , it doesn't sound good , does it ? No , no , it was rebranded back in the 90s as orange rough Okay , and it's one of the most popular ocean fish in the world now .

Speaker 1 46:35

Oh .

Speaker 3 46:35

Same fish just got a new name because when it was called Slimehead it was sold for animal feed and pet food , and when they decided to rename it as Orange Ruffy , now it's sold for human food and they get a lot more money per fish .

Speaker 1 46:49

That is like the story of lobster on the east coast of the United States . They gave the lobster to the inmates and now it's more of a luxury dish .

Speaker 3 46:59

Part of that is we changed how we cook it . It used to be that people just stuck the lobster in a pot and boiled it , so it was not delicious , whereas if you steam it and serve it with butter

Fish Fraud and Closing Pet Story

Speaker 3 47:10

it's pretty gosh darn good .

Speaker 1 47:10

But yeah , butter is the key . Katie , thanks for talking to us a little bit about your job and some science and genetics . It was fascinating . We always end the interview asking our guests to share a pet story with us from their life , and I was wondering if you could do that .

Speaker 3 47:26

Oh sure , I have a lot of stories about my childhood cat .

Speaker 1 47:30

Okay .

Speaker 3 47:31

So he was an orange and white cat . His name was Rascal . We got him when he was a little baby kitten and he at the time he was allowed to be an indoor-outdoor cat and he loved hunting small critters . So one time he came to the door and he looked like he was limping like hunched up , holding his leg , not right . Oh my gosh , something got him . He must be hurt . We pick him up and he's not hurt . He's actually hugging a small songbird against himself and he let it go in the house .

Speaker 3 48:07

So my sister and I were trying to get ready for school , my dad is trying to get out the door for work , my mom was trying to get us kids out the door so she could go to work . And here we are in the living room chasing this bird around and the cat rascal . He was so proud of himself . You know when cats bring you things , it's a sign they love you . So he brought us this bird as an I love you thing . My current cats are all indoor cats and so we have a one of our cats . His name is sir puck . He's a black cat , he likes to hunt a microphone cover and he'll bring us that because that's the most worthy adversary he can find . Yes , does your ginger bring you gift gifts , or she uh , not allowed out unless she's in the cat backpack yeah , so she .

Speaker 1 48:53

We live in a very dangerous place that to let cats go free oh yeah , moose , moose legs yeah , predator , she went that day along , something would eat her , probably in her catio . She caught has caught a mouse and a bird like oh my , they came into her area like . Like I feel that's their fault . Yeah , that's on the bird that's on the mouse . They have a wide world of Canada to go .

Speaker 3 49:17

Yeah , that's natural selection at work . That's that bird was being dumb .

Speaker 1 49:22

Yeah , they got taken out by Ginger . She is a cat . Yeah , what was the name ? I'm sorry . What was the name of the cat that brought the bird in the house ? His name was rascal . Oh , rascal , very fitting . Yep , yep , he was . He was something . A very fun cat . Thanks for sharing your pet story , doc . Very sweet and also exciting , and people can relate to animals bringing things into the house oh gosh , yes yeah , oh , yeah , yeah , anyway , I could tell cat stories all day but oh gosh .

Speaker 3 49:52

Yes , yeah , oh , yeah , yeah . Anyway , I could tell cat stories all day , but I promise I will not .

Speaker 1 49:58

We're at the end of our chat . Are you on social media anywhere that people could follow you or connect with you ?

Speaker 3 50:04

You can find me on research gate as Katie Burnett and you can find me on I'm still on the Facebook as Katie and Zemlansky Burnett , but you can just look for Katie Burnett . It's not a common last name , yeah .

Speaker 1 50:19

Perfect . We'll make sure a couple of those links are in our show notes for folks to check out . Thank you for being a guest . Really appreciate it .

Speaker 3 50:27

Thank you for having me . It's been a delight .

Speaker 1 50:29

That's it for this week show . Thanks for having me . It's been a delight . That's it for this week's show . Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the Science Podcast . Special thanks to our guests this week and a shout out to the top tier of our Patreon group , the Paw Pack . If you'd like to support us , check out the show notes and one of the perks is you get your name shouted out at the end to show our appreciation . Chris , let's hear those names .

Speaker 2 50:53

Amelia Fettig Rhi Oda , carol Haino , jennifer Challen , linnea Janik Karen Chronister , vicky Otero , Christy Walker no-transcript .