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Episode 11 Season 7: Alien Life, Sleep Deprivation, and Public Health with guest Sabina Vorah-Miller

• Jason and Kris Zackowski • Season 7 • Episode 11

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In this episode we explore potential signs of alien life on exoplanet K2-18b and discuss how pets impact our sleep quality, while special guest Dr. Sabina Vorah-Miller provides expert insights on vaccine misinformation and avian flu safety.

• Bunsen's recovery from a UTI and continued mobility improvements
• Recent James Webb Space Telescope findings detected dimethyl sulfide on exoplanet K2-18b
• Why scientists remain cautiously optimistic but skeptical about alien life evidence
• Study reveals pets in bed may not significantly impact sleep quality despite perception
• Dogs in bed provide stronger feelings of comfort than cats or human partners

And our guest:

• Public health expert Sabina Vorau-Miller explains vaccine hesitancy origins and misconceptions
• Current measles outbreaks and the importance of MMR vaccination
• HPV vaccine success in preventing cervical cancer
• Avian influenza (H5N1) spillover from birds to cattle and precautions for humans and pets
• Safety tips: consume only pasteurized milk, thoroughly cook meat, keep pets away from wild birds

Take care!  Happy Easter if you celebrate!

Sabina's Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unambiguousscience/

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Speaker 1:

Hello science enthusiasts. I'm Jason Zukoski. And I'm Chris Zukoski, we're the pet parents of Bunsen, beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.

Speaker 2:

The science animals on social media.

Speaker 1:

If you love science.

Speaker 2:

And you love pets.

Speaker 1:

You've come to the right spot, so put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail.

Speaker 1:

This is the science podcast. Hi everybody, welcome back to the science podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there. This is episode 11 of season seven. Hey, that kind of rhymes. Chris and I are going to be talking in this episode about our lack of sleep.

Speaker 1:

Bunsen had a urinary tract infection which was keeping him up and keeping us up, but luckily it seems like the antibiotics are really helping him. So he's had a rough go lately, but like his. The other some good news is his mobility keeps getting better, week by week, week by a little bit, um, so that's something we're also noticing. He still has some tippy tappy movement, uh, but he's moving faster and with more confidence and he wants to scamper and run outside, but he's still on light walking. We can't go off leash and and we're going to be looking at other things for rehab for him that might help. Some folks have suggested hydrotherapy, and that's one thing that Vet Clinic in town does. So, yeah, we're looking for some ways to get the big guy back to 100%.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, what's on the show this week in science news? Is there alien life out there? Maybe you've seen the clickbaity headlines, but chris and I are going to put on our skeptical hats and talk about that planet that may or may not have life on. In pet science topical, as I mentioned, not a lot of sleep happening here in the last uh week, week and a half, two weeks and we found a study about. Do people with pets have less sleep than people without pets? We'll find out. Our guest in Ask an Expert is doctor of public health candidate, sabina Vorau-Miller, and with all of the things happening in the news with communicable diseases, a perfect guess for uncertain times. All right, let's get on with the show, because there's no time like science time. This week in science news, chris and I are going to talk about life potentially on another planet. I know I get really excited about space, but this story is about as exciting as it possibly can get Chris.

Speaker 2:

I know space, but this story is about as exciting as it possibly can get, chris. I know now it is pretty recent, as of april 17th, and so lots of people are talking about it and we have to be careful because there's some clickbaity stuff out there that's right.

Speaker 1:

That's the reason I picked this one is all over social media, especially Twitter or X. I've been seeing some sensational reporting on it and though I want to keep everybody really excited, I think we need to look at it with a skeptical hat. So let's get going, and I guess the lead or the clickbaity title is Life May Be Found on Alien Planet K2-18b.

Speaker 2:

It's not new. It was discovered in 2015 by the Kepler Space Telescope, but the more recent findings come to us from the James Webb Telescope. K2-18b's, a catchy name, orbits a red dwarf star, and it's about 125 light years away from us, from Earth. And it's actually why it's interesting is because of its location. It's located in its star's habitable zone, where liquid water could potentially exist. Now it's larger than Earth. It's about 2.6 times Earth's diameter and 8.6 times its mass. So they classify it as a sub-Neptune or a mini-Neptune, which is a planet type not found in our solar backyard, in our solar system. And they're not sure what the exact composition of K2-18b is, but models suggest that it could be a Heishen world, a water-ocean planet under a hydrogen, a hydrogen rich atmosphere. So it has a name mashup like a celebrity status ginger newly, or uh ches newly yeah, exactly, it's a mashup.

Speaker 2:

I don't even know. I think that's how you would say that hydrogen. Hydrogen, hydrogen ocean.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I am filled with wonder about these exoplanets. The only planets we know are the ones within our solar system, and they're really cool. But a large Earth, a super Earth, but potentially covered of course there's debate on this potentially covered with a giant ocean that's bananas. Now here's where the science comes in. Chris, you did a good job explaining what K2-18b is. Sounds like it's a droid from Star Wars 2D2.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, when exoplanets go in front of their host star like in this case, it's a red dwarf the atmosphere is blasted by light. So we are waiting patiently for a planet exoplanet to go in front of its star. And what's really crazy is that's what JWST was built for it has infrared sensors that are ideal for looking at that light from the star coming through the atmosphere of the exoplanet. It's basically a detective looking for molecular fingerprints in the atmospheres.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and if you look at our eyes can't see through our hand into our bones, but x-rays can. And so with the James Webb Space Telescope, with the infrared sensors, it allows more complex measurements to be taken.

Speaker 1:

Now, this did not happen quickly. The team that was looking at this planet used three of these instruments on JWST and observed this planet for over two years. So the exciting thing is the gas that it found. So the exciting thing is the gas that it found. Now, the gas that it found wasn't ones that you would think of, oh, oxygen or nitrogen, which are the two main gases on Earth. They're sulfides, dimethyl sulfide and dimethyl disulfide. Now, why are these such a big deal, Chris?

Speaker 2:

So on Earth, dimethyl sulfide is produced by phytoplankton and it isn't known to be created through non-biological means. So if they're thinking, hey, maybe it's this dimethyl sulfide is being created by a biological means, but they're not sure. But what's really interesting is the molecules are appearing in significant amounts. Which, where is it coming from? And that could potentially suggest possible biological origin, but absolutely not conclusively.

Speaker 1:

So we're going to put our skepticism hat on our skeptical hat. These detections are at something they classify a three sigma level, which is a 0.3% chance. The signal is random, but the gold standard is a five sigma standard that is required for scientific confidence. So, even though that's really good, it's not as high as they were hoping. Also, even though this telescope is wicked powerful, if you could hop on a beam of light it would take you 125 years to get there. So these signals are super faint and, of course, when there's really faint signals, any kind of like tiny plus minus on your instruments, like pixel sensitivity, that could mimic these real gases Hubble, of course, famously mistook methane for water on this exact same planet.

Speaker 2:

That's not to say that they can't get to the five sigma standard, but they would have to observe the planet for 20 to 30 hours to get more information and data.

Speaker 1:

And then, lastly, dms, dimethyl sulfide, has been created in labs and it's been found in comets, so it's not exclusive to life, even though the greatest amount of it is created by phytoplankton here on Earth.

Speaker 2:

So I don't know if there's going to be. If we look at the big picture, the detection is not proof of alien life but it is definitely a significant step in the search. But astronomers are stressing the need for cautious interpretation to definitely preserve scientific credibility. We don't want to say, oh, alien life. And then have to go back on that because that's like the boy who cried wolf. So there may never actually be a single moment of woohoo, we found aliens. It might look more like a gradual accumulation of evidence over time. But there's some threats to funding, to NASA and other programs which could delay or prevent future telescopes, for example the habitable worlds observatory that could help confirm the biosignors.

Speaker 1:

Come, help confirm biosignage so I guess, in conclusion, chris, this is extremely exciting. It's a gas that could lead to the conclusion that there's life on this planet. However, there's enough skepticism to temper that with. We need more data, and I think that's the greatest thing about space science is we can look up into the stars and think about life out there around those stars in the sky and hopefully, within our lifetime, we get there. Though I think if aliens come knocking and they land and say hello, probably we can point to them and say we found aliens. We won't need a gradual accumulation of evidence then.

Speaker 2:

I think I would be wishing that I had made a bunker, because we don't have a bunker, but I wish. I think I would be like I wish I had 10 year old tomato cans and all the other stuff and go into my bunker.

Speaker 1:

Hey, I've seen enough movies. We can take out the aliens with water, right? Isn't that how you get rid of them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just with normal water, just with normal water.

Speaker 1:

All right, that's science news for this week. This week in pet science, we're going to talk about sleep sleeping with your pets in your bed. This is topical because, chris, I'm pretty tired right now. We've had a rough go this last couple of weeks.

Speaker 2:

It's been a very long stretch that we have been experiencing sleep deprivation and I think by saying a couple of weeks it just makes it more manageable. But I don't think I've slept since we got Bernoulli in June last year.

Speaker 1:

Like as good as you did before.

Speaker 2:

Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it.

Speaker 1:

Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it. Yeah, the problem is that Bernoulli as a puppy was as an early riser and he is doing so good, like the last, I don't know. He crate trained tough at the start and now he's great. But the issue that where we had, especially this last couple couple of weeks, potentially is that Bunsen had a urinary tract infection and he was barking at two o'clock in the morning and then we would have to take him out. You caught that early and that's gotten better, but still like, when one dog starts barking then they all start spark, start barking, and then sometimes the cat is moving around and fighting ghosts and that sets them off and bernoulli wants go play with his friend.

Speaker 2:

Why aren't we all awake? Why aren't we all awake? This is a great time to be awake. It's 430 in the morning. This is the best time, and I'm not going to lie Jason, that's time that I've got extra time to do marking and things and make assignments it's I've made, I don't know lemonade out of lemons, out of the situation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, was doing good like I could get up and do. If I got up early I would have an extra hour for content, but I'm running on empty now and I know you are. So I saw this pop up and I was like, wow, this is topical for us to talk about. On social media we do project this aura that we have everything figured out with our pets.

Speaker 2:

But the last, especially the last two weeks, with bunsen's getting up at two, I was like it progressively got worse and then about a week ago it was really bad for two or three nights in a row and I just said to myself self, I'm going to call the vet and make an appointment because we've had other health concerns with him that we have shared through our social media channels and so we are pretty transparent about what's been going on, and I was doing a little bit of research into potentially why a dog might get a UTI and crystals and it could be stress. So Bunsen also could be experiencing stress from the whole body situation that he had with the tapeworm cyst removal and then with his neck, and so we can't blame him because he's just trying to work out his systems too. But anyway, we gave him some antibiotics and we'll do a retest to see how he's doing and it's getting better.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so let's get to the study. As people know, it's pretty common in many places around the world for people to share their beds with pets and also human partners, though I know there's a lot of couples that don't sleep in the same bed because there's been shown because in studies it's been shown that sleeping with a human partner has both positive and negative effects on sleep quality, like snoring or tossing. I am a bed tosser, like I toss around at night and occasionally I snore and you elbow me, and occasionally you snore and I elbow you. But there's not a lot known about bed sharing with pets.

Speaker 2:

No, and like when you are sharing a bed with a pet. I don't know if Jason's doing this on purpose, but now his new move is to lay diagonally on the bed, and Jason is over six feet, six feet three, and so laying diagonally cuts like a little triangle of the bed for me and I'm just like dude. Oh, my goodness, we're already not sleeping and then you're just cutting off more bed than I have.

Speaker 1:

But if I lay normally, my feet hang off the edge of the bed.

Speaker 2:

This is what people who?

Speaker 1:

yeah, this is what people who are not tall don't understand is that the world is much smaller when you are quite tall. Now, I'm not a giant, but I am definitely taller than normal. So if I don't sleep diagonal, I either have to crunch up into a ball or I sleep with my feet hanging off the edge of the bed. So sleeping diagonally allows me to stretch out. Sorry, chris, if that's crowding you.

Speaker 2:

But then it's because if you have the dog and Beaker wherever she goes, she might push you into me, or I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so just for context, beaker, our golden, she sleeps in our bed every night. Every night she sleeps in our bed and I'd say, 75% of the time Ginger sleeps in our bed, Though she moves around quite a bit at night.

Speaker 2:

But she does Very active.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, she does sleep in our bed, at least for part of the night.

Speaker 2:

And then she goes with her nails to on the scratching post on the bed and then that makes beaker crazy lazy, yeah, and then we're all up.

Speaker 1:

So the study looked at 962 adult women living in the united states. Data was collected by an online survey and the main measure of sleep quality with pets was the Pittsburgh Sleep Quality Index, or the PSQI. Also, they looked at sleep habits and subjective perceptions of sleep. What are the stats?

Speaker 2:

The bed sharing statistics say that 55% of participants shared their bed with at least one dog and 31% shared their bed with at least one dog, and 31 percent shared their bed with at least one cat, and 57 percent shared their bed with a human partner and, all in all, 93 percent of the participants lived with at least one dog or cat looks like a lot of people have a pet.

Speaker 1:

they may not sleep in the bed, but a lot of people do so it. They may not sleep in the bed, but a lot of people do, so it's almost 100% having a cat or a dog in your house. So here are some of the findings that are quite interesting. There was no strong relationship between pet ownership, bed sharing and sleep quality, according to the study and the PSQI scores. However, a high percentage of participants overall experienced poor sleep quality, raising questions about possible pet related. However, a high percentage of participants overall experienced poor sleep quality, which raised questions about possible pet related contributions to sleep deficits. So maybe just having a pet in your house decreases your ability to sleep nice through the night.

Speaker 2:

We tried to Ferberize Bunsen, so that was part of our strategy. We'll just let him bark and it'll be painful for a couple of nights and then he'll calm down, okay, for a couple of nights, and then he'll calm down, okay. And we had a crying duncan when he was a baby and we tried the ferber method and it worked for us and it didn't work for bunsen, but that would make sense because he had a uti yeah, that's why he, that's why he was so sad those couple nights.

Speaker 1:

We just thought he was just like wanting. He was wanting everybody to be wake up and have early breakfast. So some sleep habits from the studies and I'm not surprised about this. If you own a dog, you were going to go to bed earlier and you're going to wake up earlier than those who had cats but no dogs, because our dogs, before this nonsense, were up at six, are up at six o'clock on the nose. They do not sleep in.

Speaker 2:

One of the three of them is up because morning time is a food time dogs in the bed seem to be the perception is less disruptive to sleep than human partners, and I know it's pretty funny. I'm thinking that's true because Beaker settles in and even if she shifts it's not really bad. But if your husband cuts you off diagonally, that is a definite deficit impact. But having dogs in the bed provided stronger feelings of comfort and security, whereas cats in the bed are equally disruptive as human partners. The perception of that and associated with weaker feelings of comfort and security than both dogs and humans. They're probably like if we're thinking, ginger, she's not going to save us in the middle of the night from the boogeyman coming in, but I know that you would and I know that Bunsen would too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, beaker would do a good job as well, and Bernoulli would be in his crate.

Speaker 1:

Bernoulli would not be helpful to anybody because he's also a baby. Yeah, we don't give Beaker enough credit. Who knows what she would do. I think she would rise to the occasion. But I've said this before I get. I've had naps before with dogs sleeping on the bed. Now Beaker sleeps on the bed, and occasionally Bernoulli is allowed on the bed, and when Bunsen was younger he would hop up on the bed too. In the past I've had Bunsen and Beaker sleeping next to me, and boy do I get a good sleep. I'll tell you that that is like the most restful, warm cocoon sleep you'd ever get with a Bernice Mountain Dog and a Golden Retriever. And Bernoulli is a cuddly guy too, like he loves to cuddle in the bed. But we have him crated because he'll sneak away in the night and eat the wall. So that's a bit of a problem.

Speaker 2:

It is a bit of a problem that definitely affects my ability to fall asleep. If I'm thinking, is Bernoulli chewing the banister? Because he did that today.

Speaker 1:

Now, obviously, the location of your pets may play a role in your impact. Obviously, the location of your pets probably play a big role in their impact on your sleep. He had some separation anxiety when he was little, so we tried to create him outside our room and he lost his mind night after night. So our, the dog trainers, you know what? Just why don't you just try having him in your room in a crate? And it worked perfect. He was totally fine and we're like okay, but so he's in the crate in our room. Obviously, you could put your dog to sleep way far away so you wouldn't hear them barking or moving around. You can not let your cat come into your room. There's ways you could do things and we just didn't do that and maybe now there's some consequences.

Speaker 2:

So Jason and I are tongue in cheek talking about our anecdotal evidence, which we all know isn't necessarily evidence. So more research is definitely needed to validate pet owners' perceptions against objective sleep tracking data, and so they should also look at exploring how individual pet behaviors, for example movement or noises, may influence a sleep cycle and then determine causation versus correlation in pet presence and reported sleep deprivation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it makes sense. Just because you think it's your pet, you could just be getting up for any other number of reasons, though Ginger does move around in the night and that definitely wakes me up. Also, she sleeps by my feet and if I move too much she attacks, she bites my toes, and then I'll tell you that wakes you up right quick, because that's the weirdest feeling in the world is you're sleeping and all of a sudden there's like a little nging, nging, nging like on your toes and you're like this fuzzy thing is biting you. I've probably been woken up by 10 times from ginger biting my toes.

Speaker 2:

But if we keep her outside, then she's outside with Bunsen. If we put Bunsen outside, then he starts barking to get in. So we haven't hit our rhythm.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's Pet Science for this week. Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the science podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger, the science cat, has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too. Okay, on with the show. Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have doctor of public health candidate Sabina Fohra-Miller here with us today, also known as Unambiguous Science on Instagram. How are you doing today, sabina?

Speaker 3:

I am doing excellent. How are you?

Speaker 1:

Little tongue-tied but I'm good. I hope you're well. Where are you calling into the show from? Where are you in the world?

Speaker 3:

So I am currently calling in from California, but I am actually a Toronto resident.

Speaker 1:

Okay, all right, you're way far east of where we are in Alberta, if you're a resident of Toronto. Yeah, sure A little warmer weather than us probably currently today.

Speaker 3:

It's actually rainy here today. We don't get a lot of rain, but I think California needs rain, so it's good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, have you been in California long?

Speaker 3:

We've been here now for the last two years, but we are moving back to Toronto this summer, which I'm very excited about. There's nothing like home and Toronto is. I'm a Toronto girl, true, and so I'm really looking forward to going back.

Speaker 1:

You know what Of my family, I am the only one who hasn't been to Toronto. My, you know what Of my family, I am the only one who hasn't been to Toronto. My wife has been a couple times, my sons have been and I have not.

Speaker 3:

What's the center of the universe right?

Speaker 1:

We here tell that here in Alberta. Yes, that's a Canadian joke for the Canadians. So, sabina, what's your training in science? Could you break that down for us?

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I'm probably going to give my age by saying this, but I have a master's in clinical pharmacology and toxicology from a really long time ago From the University of Toronto. I actually worked closely with a teratology neonatology program called Mother Risk out of the Hospital for Sick Children, pretty ubiquitously known across Canada. I did that a really long time ago. I ended up leaving. I finished with a master's degree, I was in the PhD program, switched out with my master's, and then I actually worked in biotech as a scientific advisor for a very long time and my area of expertise there was really in oncology, specifically immuno-oncology.

Speaker 3:

But I actually ended up leaving VAT in 2016, just before my son was born, and the reason for that was because I wanted to start my family foundation, and the focus of our foundation is similar it's health of the planet, health of the people and somehow, through COVID, I got roped right back in into science and SciComm and so I'm currently almost done my doctor of public health at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health hopefully should be done by the end of this year, if I get all my stats done, which don't do themselves, by the way. I don't know if anyone knows this. But yeah, that's the long story short. I've had a bit of a meandering journey, but I think through and through I am super passionate about science. It is being something that I've always been drawn to and I don't think it's a part of me that will ever go.

Speaker 1:

Aw, when you were little, were you a science kid? Were you mixing potions and catching bugs and exploring the world, and exploring the world.

Speaker 3:

Can I tell you my parents still laugh about this but I used to be an avid reader and I didn't grow up in North America I'm actually a first generation immigrant and so I didn't have access to a lot of books, especially books in English. So when I needed something to read, I would actually take out the product inserts from medicines, from drugs and sit there and just read product inserts day in and day out. And of course, I went in to study pharmacology. It all just makes perfect sense. But I was 10 years old and I would ask my mom all these questions about what does whatever it is the word that I was reading on those product inserts say.

Speaker 3:

But I've always really enjoyed science and trying to understand how the body works. And it's funny, my husband's an engineer and he's a tech geek and my son is unfortunately going in his path, but I keep reminding him I know, unfortunately, but I keep reminding him that, honestly, the best computer, the best AI, the best robots, the best anything you could ever think of, is the human body. There is simply nothing more intelligent, more capable than the human body and I think that, for me, has always fascinated me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's very cool. Can I ask where you're from originally? You said you're first generation Canada. Is that? Is it okay for me to ask that? I'm just curious.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. I am actually a South Asian, so I'm from India, I'm from Delhi, the capital, and my husband's actually Caucasian, and so our kiddo is. He's a cute little mixed kid that likes to, he loves talking about Diwali and at the same time he loves listening to my husband talk about his European roots. So it's a really nice mishmash of like half South Asian, I think, a quarter Scottish, a quarter German, half English. Yeah, it's really cute.

Speaker 1:

Oh, thank you for sharing that's. That's great. I sound very proud of your family, which is amazing. So maybe switching gears into your the SciComm you have. Like you said, you're pretty passionate about science communication and that's actually how we found you on Instagram, like the Bunsen, beaker and Brulie account. We follow lots of science folks and scientists and you're out there busting myths and correcting misinformation. Perspective as somebody in that realm, especially as you're moving towards public health, being a doctor of public health, is there some big bits of misinformation or myths that you'd like to tell us about that we need to watch out for.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and so I've been actually trying to bust some of these myths, especially on vaccines, for a very long time. It actually really started when I was pregnant with my son, and I think that was my first foyer into some of these Facebook mom groups and I think the first time when I actually came across people who were hesitant on vaccines like I'm a first generation immigrant, I didn't really have great access to vaccines growing up and like I remember standing out under the sun for hours waiting because it was vaccine day day at school and just the importance of it. So it was really the first time when I came across people who were hesitant about vaccines. In my entire life I had not really come across that and so I started answering questions on vaccines and trying to understand where these fears were coming from, and it was really just really interesting to see what people were concerned about and what they were anxious about. And then I had my son and it was interesting because at that point I finally understood and realized where some of these anxieties are coming from.

Speaker 3:

As a parent, you're always trying to do the best you can for your child especially, and sometimes you hear about a lot of this fear mongering, misinformation that is just so pervasive these days and it really makes you wonder if you're doing the right thing or you're not. So the one thing I come across very often when I'm speaking to especially parents is what about? Should I be worried about vaccine side effects? How worried should I be about them? Are they very common? And that's something that I've heard repeatedly over the last decade with respect to vaccines, and I think it's just really interesting for folks in healthcare and in public health to take a step back and understand why people are worried and actually have these conversations about these concerns that people have. First of all, everything in life carries risk. You getting into your car, driving to work has a risk. It's not risk-free.

Speaker 1:

Crazy risky, it's do all day.

Speaker 3:

Exactly that, and I think people do it because they're so desensitized to it. It's something they do on a routinely, daily basis and they don't think about that. But everything carries risks, and the point is that, going to work, earning an income the benefits from that obviously outweigh that risks that you take when you're driving a car. You also have things where you're trying to reduce risks, like you have seatbelts, you have speed limits, you have all of that in place, you have traffic lights, right. These are all ways that we actually decrease risk, but nothing carries zero risk.

Speaker 3:

And so, when it comes down to vaccines, what ends up happening is that the risks in some people's minds are way overblown and the benefits are underplayed. And in public health, this is because of the prevention paradox, and the reason is because vaccines have essentially either fully eliminated or drastically reduced the incidence of several diseases, infectious diseases that we just don't see. And because we don't see, we don't really realize the impact they used to have before the vaccines were in place. And so what's really important to understand is that with vaccines, yes, there are risks, but the risks are generally minor, minor side effects that can happen. Say, for instance, you might have a slight fever, you might have a sore arm and very rarely you could potentially have a more severe side effect. But overall, overwhelmingly, the benefits of the vaccines outweigh these risks that do exist and that's the point that's really critical and really important to know. And we's the point that's really critical and really important to know and we're seeing that play out right now with the measles outbreaks as well in the.

Speaker 3:

US.

Speaker 1:

Canada. Can I jump in Just out of anxiety? I haven't really been keeping up with the measles thing. Sabina, is it going to start to be bad? Because that's what I'm hearing the more I look into it like it's starting to spread in areas.

Speaker 3:

We're already seeing cases at an unprecedented rate, right, if you look at the number of cases we already have, I mean, if you actually look at the case for case in Ontario compared to Texas. We don't hear about this very much in Canada, but the cases Ontario far exceed those in Texas based on population size.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah.

Speaker 3:

So it's actually a huge issue right now and we already have more cases this year in all of Canada than we had for all of last year. So unfortunately, we're not, the trend is not going in the right direction and we're seeing that happen not just in the US and not just in Canada, but also, of course, globally. So, yeah, I am concerned about this because we do have something that is exceptionally effective in preventing the disease preventing deaths. We've seen now already two deaths that have occurred in young kids one in Texas, one in Ontario in the last four to six months, and it's really unfortunate and it's really heartbreaking, especially as a parent, because this was very much preventable.

Speaker 1:

And you can please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm a chemistry guy, not an infectious disease person.

Speaker 3:

I would never have guessed with that name of it, bunsen-durner, really Never would have guessed.

Speaker 1:

Where's my? Where's my? Oh, I have a soundboard when guests. There we go, there we go. Good, Measles is crazy, infectious. Right, it's one of the most infectious things.

Speaker 3:

Extremely infectious. It lingers in the air for so long. It lingers in the air for like close to two hours if someone who was infectious was in the room with you, and it's just, and if you're not, you don't have that wall of immunity with respect to herd immunity and vaccines. It can infect so many people, it's just. It is actually the most contagious and most infectious pathogen out there and and it's something that can kill kids.

Speaker 1:

Right, it's not harmless. You don't get like a little rash Maybe you do and some most people get better but it legit can kill kids if they get it Absolutely can kill kids.

Speaker 3:

We've already seen that happen right With the cases that we see both here in Ontario as well as we saw in Texas. But not just the deaths. I think also it's important to remember it can cause so many other very severe issues as well. Pneumonia is another thing, but the other thing that I am terrified about with respect to measles is the brain swelling that it can cause and the brain swelling so one out of every thousand children can get this really severe brain swelling, which can lead to blindness, deafness and even worse outcomes. And then it can also cause this thing called immune amnesia, where your body essentially forgets how to fight off other pathogens, other infections, and so it makes you a lot more susceptible to tons of other infections and it's just overall an exceptionally dangerous disease. And of course, let's not forget that we also do see deaths due to measles that can occur.

Speaker 1:

Good to know and that's the measles vaccine for most kids in North America Is that in the? That's in the MMR thing?

Speaker 3:

Exactly, yeah. So the MMR vaccine contains vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella. It's usually given as a two-dose, so two doses means you're fully vaccinated and two doses gives you 97% protection against measles, and it's basically, for the most part, for most people. Again, nothing is ever 100%, but for most people it actually provides lifelong immunity as well.

Speaker 1:

Nice. Ironically enough, Sabina, I'm a classroom teacher. That's my day job. I teach high school chemistry. The grade nines at our school were being immunized today.

Speaker 3:

Oh nice.

Speaker 1:

It was immunization day. Today they're calling the kids down by last name.

Speaker 3:

So I guess it was for HPV slightly different topic, but likely for the HPV vaccination which, by the way, yesterday was HPV awareness day. And guess what? The best part, like the one thing I love to talk about, is you know how there are folks the ones who are anti-science, et cetera who keep talking about how big pharma and everyone, the FDA, et cetera they're keeping away the cure for prevention of cancer. Guess what, guys? There is actually a vaccine that can prevent cancer. It's the HPV vaccine. Go get it.

Speaker 1:

It's wild, isn't it? The stats are starting to come in. And then I want to say Scotland, it has 100% eliminated cervical cancer. It's gone.

Speaker 3:

Exactly that.

Speaker 1:

That's wild to me.

Speaker 3:

It is so wild. And so here you have, essentially, a vaccine that works so incredibly well to prevent cancer and so effective, and just it's just absolutely incredible. And so we have things that prevent cancer, prevent infections, and we're at a point, in a moment in time, where people are just denying the utility of vaccines in general, which is just so unfortunate.

Speaker 1:

I apologize, I think I misspoke. I think it's death due to cervical cancer is now is at zero. I apologize, I don't think the cervical cancer is zero.

Speaker 3:

No, so the study from Scotland? Actually, the HBV vaccine was 100% effective in preventing invasive cervical cancer in that study.

Speaker 1:

Oh okay, yeah, so there was zero cases. I felt I was overselling it there. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3:

No, you're not, you're underselling it. So, really, in that study, they found zero cases of invasive cervical cancer in all of the women who were immunized at the right time, so at age 12 or 13 years of age, and yeah, and so that's how exceptionally effective it is.

Speaker 1:

That is, bananas, bananas.

Speaker 3:

B-A-N-A-N-A.

Speaker 1:

Yeah from the office. Very cool. Okay, I appreciate picking your brain about some of the misinformation that's out there. It's a tough. Maybe just a quick question aside. It's tough to know what you should do when somebody is vaccine hesitant Like I'm a classroom teacher. I have a really good relationship with the. I taught grade nine honor science and it was time for vaccines and the one kids oh yeah, we're, I'm not going to get that. My family, we don't do that in my family and I don't know. It's not really my place to jump in there and start to say something. I feel or maybe it is like it's this weird. What should you do when somebody's decision is that way?

Speaker 3:

I think the most important part, or the most important role that we can play in situations like that is actually to try and have people think through their own rationale and actually ask them what exactly it is that they're worried about, and I think this is also. I've come across a lot of people who are vaccine hesitant, and so some of the things I do ask them is that what exactly is it that you're most concerned about? And the reason why I asked this question is because not everyone has the exact same concerns, so you don't want to be throwing out jargon and stuff down their throat when that's actually what you're trying to tell them is not what they're most concerned about. So I'll give you an example.

Speaker 3:

In the early days of the COVID-19 vaccine, I was doing a lot of work with the South Asian community and the uptake wasn't that great. And we started having these conversations with our community and the thing that they most wanted to what was keeping them from getting the vaccine was actually they didn't know whether there were any sort of animal products in these vaccines. It was such a simple thing to have addressed, but no one thought to ask.

Speaker 1:

They were worried. It's got like animal protein or something.

Speaker 3:

Exactly that, and that was just such a simple, easy thing to have answered and addressed, and we started having these consultations with the community, answer these questions that they had with respect to the ingredients of the vaccine, whether they can contain animal products or blood products, and that alleviated so many fears right. And so I think that's why it's really important to first stop and ask what are you most concerned about? And sometimes I would even say, hey, can you pull up some things that you've read and let's actually try and see how reputable these sources are. And then sometimes I counter and bring publications of my own and say, okay, let's compare and contrast these two studies or these two papers.

Speaker 1:

Your YouTube video versus my paper.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, or that it gets a little tricky. I've actually seen the gamut of all of this. My father, south Asian, gets all of his information from WhatsApp from like random aunties in India, and it's actually really good because he loves to forward these things to me saying did you know? And I'm crazy out there, but it's really good because it actually keeps me up to date on what I need to think of encounter, et cetera. So it's actually really good for me to keep up with all of the stuff that he's getting. But, yeah, his primary source of news is basically WhatsApp and random stuff that brown aunties in India send him.

Speaker 1:

I don't know. You got to get your news from somewhere and it's good that he's got you in your corner to kind of bust some of the randomness that comes across his WhatsApp feed. Yep, hey Sabina, can I pick your brain about bird flu, yes, or avian flu? In Canada we still have eggs, but I think it's starting to affect the American supply of eggs and is there a possibility of it starting to affect people, or has it already done that?

Speaker 3:

Unfortunately, it has already done that, so let's just maybe take a step back.

Speaker 1:

You just jumped in hot.

Speaker 3:

No, it's great. It's great. I think you should jump back, but I just I wanted to give some background information because I think that sometimes what happens, I think right now, is that we're hearing so much about birth flu and people think it's new. Avian flu is actually not new. It's been around for decades and there's actually several different. The highly pathogenic version of avian influenza, which is the one that is really dangerous for poultry, is caused by two different types of influenza A viruses it's the H5 and the H7 viruses and they've been around for decades, and so currently the infectious strain that is causing havoc in North America is the H5N1.

Speaker 3:

And again, it's not new. It's been around for decades, but since 2024, so in the last year and a bit what started with only one human dairy cattle in one state is now essentially a thousand herds in 16 states, and we're hearing about new human cases occurring almost on a monthly basis right Both in the US and Canada. So it's not new, it's been around. The issue is that we're seeing spillover happen now, which means that it started with birds, you know, wild birds. We've seen it, and then we've seen it in poultry, but now it's spilling over to a new host population. So we saw it kind of spill over to the cows and then we saw multiple different genotypes actually. So we've had multiple spillover events happening in cows, which means that there is that risk of even more spillover events. And the more spillover events you have, the more exposure humans especially dairy farm workers, poultry workers have with it, the higher the risk it ends up being for human exposure. So that's the concern.

Speaker 1:

Okay, all right, thank you. You did what like probably three hours of internet searching would have done for me, so I appreciate you succinctly breaking that down. That was amazing. I so appreciate that. Now I don't know if it's too early to worry about. Is this something that should be like, should we think about, should this be something on our radar, or is it a wait and see situation?

Speaker 3:

Okay. So here's the thing At this point the concern and the risk for human to human transmission. It continues to be low. It's because that there is what we call tropism, so avian influenza tends to bind with receptors that are not necessarily as commonly found in humans and they're a lot more commonly found in, obviously, poultry. We're seeing it in cattle, but we're seeing also cats and dogs tend to have more of these receptors, and so because these animals have a higher concentration of these receptors in their respiratory tracts compared to humans, they are more susceptible.

Speaker 3:

What we haven't really seen so far is human to human transmission. Ie if you know, a dairy farm worker has gotten infected because of exposure to the dairy cattle. There hasn't been onward transmission, ie that person has not then transmitted it to even household contacts, and that's a good thing, which means we're not necessarily seeing, we don't have to be concerned right now for human to human transmission. That continues to be low. However, the issue here is that the more you see things like this happen, the more there is chances of mutations occurring, and you can have mutations that then render this virus to be more susceptible for human to human transmission. So that's the biggest concern right now, but I think, also importantly, it means that we have to actually ramp up all of our preparedness and mitigation efforts, right, and that's the thing about public health If it's working well and if it's working beautifully, it works in the background and you don't even realize it. And so good public health would essentially be doing everything they can right now in the background so that we never get to a phase where there is a pandemic or there is human to human transmission, etc.

Speaker 3:

And so that's what we're doing right now in Canada. Actually, we have some fantastic plans in place. For instance, we are right now working on vaccines, right. We just, in fact, signed a deal where we were going to have half a million doses off the vaccine to be manufactured in Canada especially, which I think is really important given all of these tariffs important, given all of these tariffs, but not just that which is our National Association for Immunization in Canada. They actually have a fantastic plan framework for distribution and prioritization of these vaccines in an obviously in a non-pandemic context. But these are all things that need to be done, and they are being done, which I think should be a huge relief for people to know that we are working on this in the background. There's so much happening in the background, but of course, there are risks that do exist, and I'm happy to go over some of the key things that I think people should be aware of.

Speaker 1:

Sure, if you've got the time, you're the first person we've talked to this about. So yeah, if you've got the time, sabina, go for it.

Speaker 3:

For sure. I think that right now, there is tons of fear mongering that is also occurring. So I really want to balance out what people should be worried about and what they shouldn't be worried about. So don't be worried about human to human transmission right now, but what you should know and what you should do to reduce your risk, first of all, is only drink pasteurized milk. I think that is key. Please, no raw milk, for multiple reasons. Let's make it timely and say particularly not for avian influenza. I also think it's really important for people to thoroughly cook their meat before they consume it and similarly, don't give your pets because this is a podcast P-A-W-D. We should also keep in mind that. Don't give your pets any of this raw milk, and especially not the raw food.

Speaker 3:

We've seen actually several cases of cats oh interesting, yeah, cats and dogs dying because of consumption of meat that was infected with avian influenza. So really important to not just keep yourself protected but keep your pets protected. And same if you have pets, make sure that you keep cats, for instance, indoors, not outdoors. Same with dogs. Make sure they're not actually going up to any sort of sick or dead bird, especially now that we're going back into bird migratory season. We're going to see birds coming up up.

Speaker 3:

We're going to see tons of that happen, so we might come across birds that are sick or dead wild birds, and so I think it's really important for not just you to keep distance but your children to keep distance from sick and dead birds, and especially your pets to keep distance, that's.

Speaker 3:

I can tell you. I have two dogs. One of them does not care about anything. The other other one wants to eat everything. So, especially for my younger pup, who is super curious through her mouth, it's going to be really important for me to make sure that I keep a close eye on her when we are outdoors. And then I think also it's really important if you have backyard farms I know it's something that is super trendy right now, but again, super important for people who do have backyard farms, particularly if you have chickens and you have eggs, et cetera, to keep them away from wild birds and use proper PPE if you are handling any of your backyard farms. So I think those are the key things people really need to remember with avian influenza and also know that the Public Health Agency of Canada and others are working diligently in the background.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you. I feel relieved which with what's going on right now. It's nice to feel that.

Speaker 3:

I agree, and there's a reason why I didn't go into all of the US politics with it because it's a mess and I really don't want to bring people down right now. But I think for Canadians it's important to know that we have some incredible institutions here, that public health institutions that are really keeping up with it, and hopefully our neighbors in the US understand and realize the importance of public health and also bring back all of their departments who do a lot of this important work.

Speaker 1:

Go Canada, at least for right now yes. Thanks, sabina. I just have a real quick question before we get to our last one. We ask all our guests you mentioned your foundation, the Vora Miller Foundation. Could you just talk to us about that a little bit Sure.

Speaker 3:

So our foundation was created in 2016. Actually, so the process started in 2016, but it actually sorry I'm trying to. Now I'm going to have to go back. I feel like my memory post-COVID and pre-COVID timelines are a little messed up, but let me go back to it. So 2016, I actually left my job to focus on the foundation. By the time the foundation was up and running, it was actually the month we went into a lockdown in 2020. I remember we couldn't actually open any of our bank accounts because we were in lockdown, which was very interesting, but my husband and I basically created this foundation.

Speaker 3:

We got really lucky in life. My husband was the chief product officer at Shopify and we got super lucky in life, and I think both of us have always found this incredible need to make sure that we are contributing to our community. We both strongly believe that we don't thrive unless everyone thrives, and so that was really the reason why we created our foundation, and the two things that we thought at that time, when we first started working on our foundation, was health of the planet. As we know, environmental climate change is massive and is not stopping anytime soon. In fact, it's progressing at an alarming rate, and so we knew we needed to focus on that, and I also wanted to make sure that we were taking a full, wholesome approach to health, with public health, environmental health, health equity All of these are interconnected.

Speaker 3:

You can't really deal with one without making sure you're actually looking at the others as well, and so we took this holistic view on making sure we were looking at both health of the planet and health of the people, with a specific health equity lens to it, just because I obviously am a person of color and it's something that's very important to me. So we've continued doing that. I do a lot of work on public health through our foundation too. I use different hats, so to speak, in all of the different work I do, but it's always towards a similar goal making sure that we're leaving the world a better place for our children and a more just and equitable world for our children. So those are the two key things that we focus on.

Speaker 1:

Nice. Just for people who are interested in the show notes, I'll have a link to your foundation. I was poking around it before we chatted. There's a little video of you talking on TiVo, TVO about COVID-19.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that sounds about right. It's funny there are times when I've actually joked around with. I just did a podcast on measles the other day and I was just joking around about this and saying I'd love to actually go on a media or podcast and talk about fun things, like happy things, and not constantly about infectious diseases and deaths. And unfortunately that's the line of work I am in.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, I can pivot us there. Yeah, we ask all of our guests if they would like to share a pet story from their life or talk about their pets, and I think that's a rather joyful part of everybody's day. In fact, it might be, the most joyful part of everybody's day, absolutely. Our audience would love to hear your pet story.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you for that opportunity. I can talk about this for hours. I have two dogs and I love my two babies, my two fur babies. So you know my first dog. He's 14 years old, so you know he's a senior. His name's Pico and it's funny how his name came to be my husband's an engineer. I'm obviously in STEM as well, and so we're both STEM geeks. And we saw him and he was a runt. He was not expected to survive. And so we saw him and he was so tiny. And so we saw him and he was so tiny and I made this joke I'm like he's not a puppy, he's a micro puppy. And then my husband said actually he's a nano puppy. And then we actually said, almost in unison, he's a pico puppy, 10 to the minus 12 and the name just stuck. We're like it's pico's his name. Interestingly, I actually originally wanted to call him Trebek, like Alex Trebek from Jeffree.

Speaker 1:

Oh my heart, we love Alex so much.

Speaker 3:

Me too, but in retrospect I'm really glad we didn't name him that, because as it is, it'd be really hard to yell at a dog and say, no Trebek, how does that work? But even more so now that Alex Trebek passed away, and it was actually one of the most heartbreaking moments and I could not yell that name out, and so I'm really happy we didn't name Pico Trebek in retrospect, You'd also have to change all of your dog commands in the form of a question to him.

Speaker 3:

Yes, exactly, exactly, I didn't even think of that. So for multiple reasons I am so happy we didn't go with Trebek and we actually went with Pico, which was actually a super geeky name. 10 to the minus 12. Thankfully, our son actually named our other dog. So our other dog is almost two years old. Her name's Callie Rose and our son named her Callie because we got her when we were here in California, and Rose because the Rose Gardens are one of his favorite places to go, and so he named her Callie Rose, which I think is a really cute name, and I'm so happy I didn't have to name another living being.

Speaker 1:

What types of dogs are Pico and Callie Rose?

Speaker 3:

Pico is a Morkie, a part Maltese, part New Yorkie.

Speaker 2:

And.

Speaker 3:

Callie is a Cavachon, so she's a part Cavalier and a part Bichon.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's.

Speaker 3:

They're really cute. They're really sweet. They hate each other. Actually, no, hang on. Pico hates Callie. Callie's obsessed with Pico. It's similar to the situation you have with Bernoulli and Ginger.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, one is at the other and the other one is, just not today, please.

Speaker 3:

Exactly, and the funny thing is that Callie is so much bigger five times bigger in size than Pico. But Pico terrifies her, which I just think is hilarious, because he's also 14. He's skinny now and really old, and he has arthritis and he actually has a brain tumor too. So he's a sick, olderly, frail little puppy and she's terrified of him but obsessed with him at the same time, and I just think the dynamics between the two are just absolutely hilarious yeah, those pet dynamics are something else I agree.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, ginger terrifies bunsen, who's our older bernice, and bunsen is our hero dog, our protector. He fought a coyote and saved Beaker. He's found a lost dog like this. He's a legendary dog, what Bunsen has done in his life and he is terrified of that cat that is hilarious.

Speaker 3:

I find that so funny. And Pico is, he's five pounds on a good day and and it's funny because, ginger and he terrifies like. We were at the vet two weeks ago for his annual vaccines and there was a German Shepherd in the waiting room and the German Shepherd was terrified of Pico. I'm like what is happening?

Speaker 2:

That German.

Speaker 3:

Shepherd could have Pico for breakfast, and I don't know, I don't know. I just think it's hilarious.

Speaker 1:

It's that some of the dogs, they just have that aura about them. The don't mess with me aura.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, and Pico, pico is that, yeah, really cute and funny.

Speaker 1:

I so appreciate you sharing your pet story with us. Even though we talked about some pretty serious stuff, this was a pretty joyful end to our conversation. Thank you so much for being a guest on our show today talking about some misinformation around vaccines and, of course, the avian flu. We're really lucky to have your expertise and thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you for having me. I think you can hear Pico in the background right now because he's getting a little antsy. Yeah, thank you for having me, and I really enjoyed chatting with you, especially about the opportunity to talk about my dog.

Speaker 1:

so thank you we'll make sure there's a link to your instagram social media and then any other links you'd send us. Send them our way and we'll make sure those are in the show notes when the episode comes out amazing, thank you okay, take care.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the science podcast. If you love our show and want to support us and a perk of being one of our top tier supporters is you get a shout out at the end of the show that's the top dogs on the Paw Pack Plus community, so take a look at our show notes to support us there. We'd love it, chris, let's hear those names.

Speaker 2:

Amelia Fettig, rhi Oda, carol Hainel, jennifer Challen, linnea, chris let's and cuteness.