).png)
The Science Pawdcast
The Science Pawdcast breaks down the latest science happening in the human world AND the pet world.
Each episode will also bring you a guest to enthral you with their area of knowledge.
You'll learn, be captivated, and laugh along with host Jason Zackowski.
Pets and Science, it's the pawfect mix.
You'll also get episodes of SciChat and PetChat which are the live shows from social audio.
SciChat has an interview and Q+A with a scientist, while PetChat is a live community gathering for games and stories about pets!
For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
The Science Pawdcast
Season 6 Episode 40: Eco-Friendly Microbeads, Canine Cancer Detectives and Revolutionizing Dog Training with Angie Winters
Ever wondered how tiny skincare microbeads went from environmental villains to eco-friendly heroes? Discover the science behind their transformation as we unravel the journey of poly B-amino ester, a groundbreaking polymer with medical roots, now set to revolutionize the beauty industry. And just when you think it's all serious science, we sprinkle in some humor with a cheeky shampoo joke to keep things light and lively.
Join us as we explore the extraordinary capabilities of our four-legged friends in the fight against cancer. Meet Bernoulli, along with other talented Labrador Retrievers like Mars, Moon, and Pluto, who are changing the game with their incredible scent-tracking skills, bolstered by AI technology. We're not stopping there—future trials with Beagles are on the horizon. Their unique skills promise to further bridge the gap between technology and nature in a way that's both heartwarming and potentially life-saving.
Finally, dog lovers won't want to miss our chat with Angie Winters, a dog parenting coach with a wealth of knowledge on enhancing our relationship with our furry companions. Angie shares insights from her book, "Don't Train Your Dog," challenging conventional methods and providing practical strategies for managing behaviors like biting and anxiety. This episode is packed with tips and resources aimed at fostering a deeper connection with your dog, ensuring a harmonious household where both humans and canines thrive. Special thanks to our Paw Pack Plus community for being part of this journey with us!
Angie's links:
Grab Her Book Here
Bunsen and Beaker Links to support us!
Join the Paw Pack!
Our Website!
www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
Sign up for our Weekly Newsletter!
Bunsen and Beaker on Twitter:
Bunsen and Beaker on TikTok
For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
Being Kind is a Superpower.
https://twitter.com/bunsenbernerbmd
Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zukowski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hello, welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there.
Speaker 1:This is episode 40 of season six and the last episode of the year. If you've just started listening to our show, thank you, and if you're a longtime listener, we also appreciate you listening to our mix of science and pets. You know it's not the broadest niche, that's for sure, but if you found a home here and you do listen, we so appreciate it. All right. Well, what's on the show for this week? The last episode? Some good news. Chris and I break down a study about degradable microbeads and in pet science we tie in a really cool thing that Bernoulli has been taught to do with how dogs can detect cancer with the help of AI. The AI part isn't part of what Bernoulli can do, but it's a fun study anyways.
Speaker 1:Our guest in Ask an Expert is author and dog parenting coach, angie Winters. We get into a really unique form of dog training that she has and we've got links if you're looking to pick up the book that she wrote. Okay, the bad joke why did the shampoo get in trouble with his coach? Well, it kept skipping conditioning class. That's terrible. All right on with the show, because there's no time like Science Time this week in science news. A good story to end the year with Chris. It's about degradable microbeads. Now I know in the shower, chris, you have lots of goops for your hair and your face. Do any of your goops have microbeads in them?
Speaker 2:They do not. They do not Now. Once upon a time in Canada microbeads were allowed to be placed into products, but now I believe in Canada those microbeads are banned. But I did have what I really liked was like a scrub that I would wash my legs with because after waxing it got rid of the potential for the ingrown hairs. So that might be a little bit too much information for your podcast listeners, but I definitely like the scrubby feel and it made me feel like my skin was sloughing off and going to be beautiful after the waxing.
Speaker 1:So those microbeads were put into a whole bunch of skincare products as exfoliants. Those little beads acted like little tiny round balls coated with I don't know sandpaper. That really helped scrub your body nice and clean. They seemed like a perfect design. But the problem was is they all went down the drain and as they looked at those polymers, they never really biodegraded and they were really bad for wildlife, they were really bad for the environment and they started to add up and they are found in our bodies.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, like your body.
Speaker 1:Biomagnification, yeah, all of our bodies like, yeah, like your body, like biomagnification. Yeah, all of our bodies, if you exist on earth right now, probably have microbeads in them, these little tiny pieces of plastic, and there is there was concern that they could. They're so small, they could cross the blood brain barrier and get into your brain.
Speaker 2:All for smooth legs.
Speaker 1:I think skincare products just need to stick with putting like normally weird stuff into the goops, like Greek yogurt and goji berries and whatever the flavor of the month is A lot of those shampoos and the goops. I feel like they should be like one squirt for my toast, one squirt for my face.
Speaker 2:They just they look like you could eat them, but they don't taste good. One squirt for your toast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like some of your goops have like goji berries and Greek yogurt in it.
Speaker 2:They might Sounds like a. I like very plain products like the ordinary, which has a minimal amount of ingredients.
Speaker 1:Okay, Maybe it's just the stuff I see when I go shopping. This story starts with just some of the laws that came about at the end of the 2010s. 27 and 2015 were big years. Those are the years the government of Canada and the government in the United States banned microplastics microbeads in rinse-off personal care products, and they were quickly banned everywhere.
Speaker 2:But, jason, great news there is an introduction of a degradable microbead and that may soon be in a product near you in those exfoliants and skin cleansers.
Speaker 1:So now we're in the realm of chemistry, which is something I'm a little bit more familiar with than some of the stuff we talk about. The microbeads are made from a polymer, specifically poly B-amino ester, and that's something that's already used in medical applications. So the idea was taking something that does degrade over time under specific circumstances, but isn't going to be a forever chemical. These little, teeny, tiny beads are an average of 76 micrometers in diameter. Now, that's small A meter. If you shrink it down a thousand times, you get a millimeter, and if you shrink a millimeter down a thousand times, you get a micrometer. A micrometer is a million times smaller than a meter, and for our Americans that are listening, who are confused by the metric system, that's one 25,400th of an inch. Did I say that right?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure it's a fraction and it is one over 25,400 inches.
Speaker 1:It's so small. That's a scale of microscopy, because I know you just finished with your science kids, because you teach science class this semester talking about micrometers and microscopy.
Speaker 2:We did, and we just continued to practice conversions, which is always super fun.
Speaker 1:This comes from MIT and it prevents the formation of microplastics, because these beads degrade into molecules that are similar to sugars and amino acids, so over time they break down into things that can further be biodegradable. So the chemical itself to start with isn't biodegradable, but it degrades into stuff that is.
Speaker 2:So like a sugar scrub, hooray. So the testing and breakdown process included the microbeads being boiled in water, and after two hours of being boiled in water, more than 94% of the polymer had degraded into non-toxic molecules.
Speaker 1:And by boiling them. It's a catalyst to show how the environment would affect the microbeads over time. Instead of waiting two years to see what happens, you just wait two hours Now. The exciting part is, if you are, if you're all in on skincare products and you've got goops in your shower. We have some fun performance tests that they ran on this stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay. So some people think that a foaming cleanser cleans more than a non-foaming cleanser, and that's not necessarily true. But the researchers mixed the microbeads with Somfop and this was a way to test their cleansing ability. So they used pigskin samples and they wiped 50 times with the mixture and they found that removed 74% of permanent marker like Sharpie, and that was in comparison to 38% with soap on its own. But the beads were even more effective against eyeliner, which is a makeup product that can be a little bit difficult to remove, and the bead mixture removed nearly twice as much after 10 wipes compared to soap alone. This is super cool. Though this next part the microbeads also absorb copper ions from the water, which suggests that they could remove harmful metals from the skin. Microplastics are not, and these microbeads are not banned in everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, true so when you think about it. Similar to DDT. We banned it here in Canada, but it wasn't necessarily banned everywhere.
Speaker 1:So there you go, Chris. The study shows that it's possible to achieve the high performance of microbeads in your exfoliant goops and the sustainability of normal soap that washes down the drains.
Speaker 2:I think that's important for future innovation in the skincare industry. So looking for renewable materials that don't impact the environment. So coming soon to a shower near you.
Speaker 1:And if I reflect a little bit about the science podcast, because we're wrapped, this is the last episode of this season and we're going to take a break. Like things have moved towards sustainability with plastics. They're a big problem. They're really hard to recycle, but every year little things change that over time have been a really big thing, Like these microplastic bead. Things are awful for the environment, but now there's a potential alternative. So good news to end the year with our science article. That's science news for this week, this week in pet science bebop boop Kristen Bebop boop.
Speaker 2:Is that your robotic AI intelligence voice?
Speaker 1:No, I just have. I find myself saying bebop boop and some of my students pick up on it. Why do you say bebop boop and I'm like it's just like a filler, instead of saying, or whatever I say, bebop boop, get to work. Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I do it too, Jason, I do it too. So in my class I say, okay, take out your calculators, be-ba-boop. And when they're supposed to be calculating and they're just waiting for me to be-ba-boop on my calculator, I'm like, no, you have to be-ba-boop and get the answer on your calculator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I guess it does have to do with doing math and getting to work, but this study comes from some really fun. This study comes from a really cool trio of dogs that looked at the ability of dogs to sniff out cancer, augmented with the power of artificial intelligence. Now I've been using AI nearly every day since ChatGPT came out and it has made my life so much more efficient. There are bad things with AI and I know, like the AI graphics, the artists have a problem with that, but like I've been using AI to make myself and my life more efficient, I've been using AI for good.
Speaker 2:We just had a professional development about artificial intelligence and how it can effectively help teachers plan lessons, and a strong counter argument is like oh, you're letting AI do all your work for you. No, we're not. Like we are looking at vetted resources. And what's the difference about looking at vetted resources and what's the difference about looking at a teacher's guide? So that that was an interesting talk. And then I looked at a bunch of different resources that I could use to make my practice better. But I am concerned about all the information that is out there on the internet that it might be pulling from. And then you look and your lesson is has garbled hands, like how AI makes the hands all garbly. So you do have to be careful, definitely because what you put in, you do get out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. Now, specifically to the study. As I mentioned, three dogs were involved in it and you might say, whoa, that's not a lot of dogs. But if you are listening to our show, I have broke down how much training goes into teaching and training dogs to literally sniff people who have cancer or cancer in samples from people like sweat or blood or cells, and the dogs but jason, we have to talk about bernoulli and we have to talk about how he can find his leash.
Speaker 2:So this training and this article really reminds me of what we did actually today at 10 am, where we hid Bernoulli's leash and prior to that I scented up my hands with his leash smell and then I went to him and I held up my hands and he smelt my hands and then I said go find it. Where's your leash? Go find it. And he went over and he found it underneath the the plastic container that we had put it under and his tell Okay, and I'm not going to say his tell just yet, because then we did the same thing, but we put it underneath your coat and he did. He found it again and his tail is that he lays down. When he finds it, he lays down. And the dogs in the study their tail is that they find the smell and when they get the smell they sit right. It's super amazing and cute. But, to be honest with you, where the AI comes in is where the AI and the computer analysis can look at the body language cues of the dog to see if it's an accurate sit to say that they have definitively or probably located the smell of the cancer, whereas I just was so thrilled when I said, find your leash, and Bernoulli went like plotted over and then he laid down and that's his tell.
Speaker 2:But it was super cool actually, also watching him go through the motion of like when we moved we, when we moved the leash on the third time and he didn't know where it was. He went back to the old spots and then he went back to where your coat was and it just was interesting watching his nose work, that olfactory center. He was working really hard and I just thought that just reminded me as a real life example of what they're trying to achieve in this study is using the dogs to find things, and I just was so proud of Bernoulli, like, I was so proud of him. He's such a good boy, it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool and amazing. But just to make it, using the computer technology and the AI for good to be able to like he was finding his leash and although we can teach him to find more things, because now he has the base skill, but just that we're able to train this in dogs but then also be able to better interpret their body language and signals Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really cool that it ties in directly like something in our life, ties in directly to the study. So just an overview, because Christy did a good job leading up to it and explaining what happened, the specifics the three dogs were super sniffers, so they're not finding leashes, they're finding cancers. They already have been trained to find cancer. Their names are Mars, Moon and Pluto Love the space names there on those dogs. They were able to find cancer in 94% of the cases and these cases came from 1,400 participants and 261 of those participants had cancer. The dogs were able to detect cancer in 245 of those cases.
Speaker 1:Where the AI comes in is the dogs were able to detect the faint owners and their tells a sit, but it used the learning of watching. The AI had video of the dog sitting in like a very a sit. That was very assured and was also a positive that was fed to the AI program. So the AI was able to look at how the dog sit and their posture and I guess like their confidence and weed out maybe some sits that the dog wasn't sure about and maybe some sits that looks like the dog wasn't sure about, but all the mechanics were that the dog was and that increased the rate of success 94%. That's wild, hey.
Speaker 2:That is wild and we should explain that for this study it was laboratory retrievers and they were trained to detect the breast, lung and co-rectal, as well as prostate cancers by sniffing the breath samples. And another really cool thing is, like you said, the dogs correctly identified 94% of positive cases, but they also had a low false positive rate, so 60 out of the 1,048. And so that method is both reliable and accurate of how they were using the dogs to screen out the different cancers.
Speaker 1:Now normally in some types of cancers, these dogs and previous studies I've done their positive test rates are upwards of 80%. So the AI it's not like the AI did everything, but the AI did statistically bump up the success. Does this mean that you have to go breathe on a dog in the future and have AI determine if you've got cancer or not? I doubt it. Training dogs to sniff out cancer is an incredibly complicated process and not all dogs can do it and not all dogs make the grade.
Speaker 2:So the company is expecting to plan a larger clinical trial in the United States and the company is called Spotted Early and they're actually transitioning from using the Labrador retrievers into beagles because beagles are smaller and easier to train, Although Mars, Moon, Pluto and the other Labradors from the initial study continued to contribute because their scent detectors are out of this world.
Speaker 1:This is a great study and it ties into how Bernoulli has a tell to find his leash. I'm not sure if Bernoulli has the chops to sniff out cancer, but I think the next step, chris, is for him to sniff out where we are in the house, and then maybe I can go hide in the snow and he could try to find me. That'd be fun.
Speaker 2:But you know who he can find really easily, very quickly, all the time, every time Ginger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he doesn't need to be trained to find the cat. He loves that cat. He finds her every day, much to her chagrin. She's a very soggy cat sometimes. Sometimes she's pretty soggy. That's Pet Science for this week.
Speaker 1:Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the Science podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store.
Speaker 1:We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the beaker stuffy and now the ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger, the science cat has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too. Okay, on with the show. Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have author and dog parenting coach Angie Winters with me today, who's also the author of the book Don't Train your Dog A Pet Parenting Guide to Teaching Good Behavior, calming Fear and Raising Happy Dogs. Angie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. It's great to have you Quick, quickly. Where are you calling in from? Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3:I'm just outside of Columbus Ohio.
Speaker 1:Oh, ohio, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you lived there your whole life or have you ping-ponged around the world?
Speaker 3:I've lived a couple places, but just for short periods of time when I was younger. But I was born here and around here within an hour or two, so it's mainly been here all my life.
Speaker 1:Say, a tourist wants to come to Ohio, where would you send them?
Speaker 3:What most people recognize from where I live in Powell Ohio actually, and it's on the northern side of Columbus and most people are familiar with the Muirfield Golf Tournament that's here, and the Columbus Zoo is right around here too. So those are the main attractions for out-of-town people.
Speaker 1:I love me a good zoo. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 3:It's a really. It's a really very top rated.
Speaker 2:It's a great zoo. Cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's where Jack Hanna did.
Speaker 1:I know Jack, I love Jack, hanna yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was from the Columbus Zoo.
Speaker 1:So I was wondering if, just to start before we get into your book, if you could talk to us a little bit about your background. What's your training and experience with animals and dogs?
Speaker 3:I'd say to people that I didn't actually pick. This picked me and so I ended up doing it. I've done it for 26 years now. But when I was young I really was obsessed with all animals and watching their behavior and so I spent most of my time with animals and but all different animals.
Speaker 3:And then when I got older and I actually had two boys, I started I'd always done dog training and I had trained dogs for television, social media, ads, just the regular, typical training, and I started volunteering and taking the worst of the worst cases of dogs that were very broken, were unadoptable, they had been they're considered unfixable, they had been through every other trainer, all the vets, all the medication, every rescue foster and they just couldn't be cured.
Speaker 3:And so I ended up taking those because I became obsessed with trying to figure out why these behaviors were happening, these unwanted behaviors, these fears and this aggression, and why all these dogs were losing their homes or adoptions were not successful. So I became maybe not be able to sleep at night and I became obsessed with it. And then I started figuring out myself and taking video and taking notes and fast forward 26 years and I started putting together videos and then ultimately this book to teach parents and educate them about dogs, so that every adoption is successful and there's no dogs biting kids or anything like that. By doing the hardest cases for so many years hundreds of them I was able to develop my own systems and realize that they were consistently over and over working.
Speaker 1:Man, that is hard work that you did and commendable to take the dogs that really nobody wants because of their behavior and it breaks my heart when I hear those stories but like I know my own family, that's not something we would be able to take in a dog with those type of issues.
Speaker 3:So thank you for that work.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it. I know I owe almost everything in my life or that is meaningful at this point, with any kind of animals or anything I owe to dogs, because there was a period of time where during this time where I was raising my boys and bringing these dogs in, it was hard, because I have to make sure that my dog was safe and cats were safe and my children were safe. So when you've got aggressive cases or fearful cases, it can be very dangerous. I was sometimes I'd be up for 24 hours straight just keeping watch, but I'm just like a person who I just can't give up, and so it's been very hard but it's been the most rewarding thing.
Speaker 3:And ultimately I had very rare medical condition for five years and basically I had lost my life. I was on the last hours of my my life, which is a very personal subject, but then at the very last minute, I was saved. I was rushed to Pittsburgh and I had brain surgery by surgeons I had never met and I woke up cured and alive. And I know that my work with dogs. It was very profoundly struck by the fact that my work with dogs was so different and I had been, the fact that my work with dogs was so different and I had been doing it so long and I was obsessed with it and I was having great results by this point that I feel that I owe them and I think that's the reason why I'm here now. So now I feel like the luckiest person in the world.
Speaker 1:There are so many people that follow our accounts on social media that what you just said resonates so deeply with them, like not giving up on dogs. And your book your book don't train your dog looks at training dogs with that perspective that you just you spoke about your hard one techniques and I was wondering if we could get into that a little bit.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, I. What my techniques and just the big picture, Jason, is that I was just compelled to figure this out and not being able to give up. And so by fixing the worst in the worst cases over and over by hundreds, then what people have in their homes now and in their families, those behaviors are very simple and easy for me because I just reverse engineered what it took to cure these very difficult cases and then reverse engineer book conveys, because I've I'm getting great feedback that it does is that it's actually way easier than most people think to fix things and they just seem hard because they're trying these typical dog training mentality on them.
Speaker 1:So that's one thing that really struck me with your book is that one of the tags in it, one of the focuses, is there's typical flaws in dog training, like things that don't necessarily work the best, and quote unquote, typical dog training. Could you talk to us a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:Yes, so that's the main point of the book and the first couple of chapters are an overview of that and what our relationship currently now in our lives is intertwined with dogs and they're emotionally and intellectually intertwined with us and they they're brilliant at reading every one of our facial expressions, our tone of voice and our body movements, and it's been, you know, proven and you've probably seen this study, but multiple studies have been proven that puppies are actually born looking to us for help.
Speaker 3:It's not like they learn. It's not like a dog is born and then they learn. Everyone learns to read their parent or their family's facial expressions. They're just born with it. So basically, we've become part of their DNA over these last thousands of years. And the fact that exists, is saying to me I realized that was the key fact. That exists, is saying to me I realized that was the key.
Speaker 3:Because they can follow our finger pointing, our eye movements and everything to locate objects that they would never be able to find otherwise. And they just automatically look to us for help. And I give the example of I love my cat and I love cats, but they don't ask us to pull out the oven so they can get a mouse behind it, but a tennis ball goes under the couch. Oh my God, yeah. And dogs look to you immediately and help me. They just know that we're going to help them and then we run over and trip over ourselves trying to help them. We're just intertwined with them in this way, so that makes them family.
Speaker 3:So when you talk about having that kind of intellectual and emotional entanglement with something and then you say sit, treat here, down, treat, it's like giving them these simpleton commands which they are smart and they learn for us on most of it. But then the wheels really come off when people and parents are led to believe by typical dog training either harsh obedience or just treats and distractions type of dog training that they can teach a dog not to chase kids or run out the door or bite kids or be aggressive towards other dogs by using this typical dog training that they just learned to use a treat to sit down. It's basically a glorified trick, so the real teaching moments are not there. That's the flaws in typical dog training. It's either following the equation of fear in equals reaction out, or food in equals reaction out, and neither one of those are true teaching moments, that dogs don't truly understand what we want and what the safety rules are and that's just the big misunderstanding that happens and it's tragic and dogs lose their homes and their lives for that.
Speaker 1:I know you don't want to give away everything in your book. I just love, I love dogs so much and I'm fascinated by dogs training. Our little guy Bernoulli he's our Bernice Mountain Dog puppy. He's in training right now. So can I pick your brain about just one thing? The don't run out of the door. Sure, what, in your opinion, how would you tackle that? And again, I know you don't want to give away everything in your book.
Speaker 3:Oh no, I'm fine, Believe me, there's plenty in there and there's even more, I should say, on the website. I actually didn't mention that. There's a digital companion that follows on our website, parentingfordogscom. That's with a number four. There's a digital companion to this book. So everybody who buys the book, there's a QR code in the introduction and then they automatically have access to. If they would like to see these things that are written about in the book, or see me working with dogs, or see dogs doing it in real life, in real time, they can look at the videos that go along with that chapter. And then there's also downloads of the recipes and stuff like that. So, to answer your question, it's not as simple as just being able to go. You do this one, two, three. It is because I put it into the form of a recipe, but that is definitely covered in my book, among other, what I consider to be life skills, which is don't run out the door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't run out the door. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:You're going to get hit in the street or you're going to sweep kids legs or knock people out to try to run out the door. It's dangerous. So I teach dogs this recipe where I would have them. And it's hard to describe the recipe because first, the first two chapters are this overview of why we need to communicate with dogs this way and how we're intertwined with them and what that actually means. Then the next chapters get down to the nitty gritty of here's exactly how you teach this, here's how they get them, they get along with kids, here's how they don't run out the door. So, to put it in simple terms, of that with obviously you need the overview first, and then you use this communication skill where I'm talking about them reading our eyes, reading our hand movements, reading our body positions. I use treats, but it's the combination of using treats and when you use them with your actual entanglement with you.
Speaker 3:I set up a scenario where you're going to actually teach this. You can't do this and just wait until somebody comes to the door. It's set up to work. This recipe, it's a simple recipe, but go to the door and then at first you have a leash or step on the leash, and then you bring them to the door and then you have the door open a little bit but they can't go out, so you're just standing there. But the reason why mainly this works, jason, I have to tell you in the very beginning, is it's because you have to be completely emotionally neutral when you're giving these guidance recipes and when you're asking dogs to do things. So I show them with my body movements and a couple of repetitions that no, you have to look to me and for me to give you permission to run out the door if we want, if we're going outside now, and then when I get their attention and they look at me, you hold that attention where I tell the body language, very simple body language, where you can teach, use your body to teach them with a finger pointing upward, not down at them, but upward in your eye contact is telling them no, I don't want you to do this, this is not allowed, this is against the safety rules. But you got to hold that.
Speaker 3:As soon as you get eye contact with them, you have to hold that eye contact for one, one thousand one second for it to sink in, because dogs are learning in the moment. They one second for it to sink in, because dogs are learning in the moment. They're only understand what you're portraying to them in that moment. So you have to seize that moment, see behavior beforehand, jump to the moment, be completely emotionally neutral, give the what's not allowed guidance, get their eye contact and then immediately say but here's what I can do, but. And then you show them with high tones of voice and different things. For example, I don't want you to chase the kids, but here's what you can do instead. But it's the steps that you take are about four steps. They're not just here. Look, here's a treat. You might get a treat at the end of something if you're going to enhance these feelings, but it's not just here. Distract them with a treat. It's me getting eye contact with them, holding that for one 1000. And then here's what you can do.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. I love that explanation and that you call them recipes too. That's great, because it sounds like you got to practice baking the recipe before you go for the cake.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's a simple recipe. And that was the hardest part, right, and it's this is why it's taken 26 years is I can't just make it simple. I need to make it simple and it has to work really well. So that's the hardest part. I could do it all day long, but I had to make it simple enough and work with chaos of life. Whether there's kids in their family life, whether it's just you and your dog, whether you're in a high rise or whether you're in a suburban neighborhood.
Speaker 3:The recipe has to work for all of those. And it has to be simple enough and easy enough that everybody can use it in your everyday life, because things get chaotic and it's not like we're just all sitting around waiting for I'm going to wait for my dog to have this behavior and then I'm going to see what I can do about it. You get empowered when you know, oh, I'm going to do this, I'm going to set this up, I'm going to do it, I'm going to be emotionally neutral and then dogs learn amazingly fast from that and that's how you can tell this what I'm teaching works because you don't take very. It doesn't take very many repetitions. Sometimes one repetition and typical dog training is tricks for treats, sit down or heel or whatever. And then you do that multiple that most typical trainers say you need to do that repetition 50 times and over a three week period, and so parents don't have time for that and besides it doesn't work, yeah.
Speaker 1:As soon as something is tough and time consuming, then the retention and the ability to fall through goes right through the floor.
Speaker 3:Right and then and you have a relationship with your dogs, right, how smart they are, right, how they can understand big picture. This is not allowed. This is allowed. But then they start making up these subtle communications and subtle actions that they do. That is still allowed, is within the boundaries that you've said are still allowed. They come up with all these ideas themselves. They're completely capable of developing self-control, and that tricks for treats and that fear based stuff relies on the mental or the perspective that dogs cannot develop self-control and they can. And so you're taking this highly intelligent, highly emotional creature, basically born, to be in our family now, because they're born with us in their DNA, and you're treating them like a simpleton. Aww.
Speaker 1:Aww, I guess we sometimes say Bernoulli the puppy, he's got a brain full of mush, but he doesn't. He's really smart.
Speaker 3:No, he doesn't. He's really smart? No, he doesn't. And it's like when people are trying typical dog training which I know why they try it this has been an uphill stream for me. I'm swimming uphill for 26 years, or upstream for 26 years, because this is going against what we've all been taught, what we've all so ingrained, this typical dog training mentality, that it actually goes so far against it. But then, as soon as it clicks and you see it, you're like everybody says this is what. Everybody says that's too simple, it can't, that can't be that easy. It was like yes, actually it is.
Speaker 3:Because think about when you have a positive routine of something that your dog learns and then say dad gets up and dad makes coffee and I set the thing, but I don't get out of bed yet until mom gets up. Or they know the routine of what's happening, and now dad makes his coffee and then he gives me a treat or a bone. So they then they want to do that same routine with the same stuff you know at the same time, all the time, because it's a routine like a two-year-old. It makes them feel safe and they love to know what they're fully allowed to do and what's going to happen, love, to know what they're fully allowed to do and what's going to happen. So they revel in that and then you start seeing their whole personality come out.
Speaker 3:Most people don't even see. They live with dogs for years and you love them, you see the love, but they don't ever see their true capabilities and personalities. Because we're telling people to use this dog training and then when the dogs are all out of control, then you'll never see that because you just see them as being out of control. Yeah, you can't get those. That can't. You got to calm it down, keep emotionally neutral and just follow these recipes for teaching things and prescriptions for fixing things.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's exciting. I'm sure people are taking notes. A couple more questions, maybe on a little bit more serious topic. Your book talks about like dogs that nip and bite and that can become real serious real fast for some families, right? I was wondering if we could pick your brain like what's in your opinion, what's the root cause of that for dogs?
Speaker 3:So one of the. There's a couple root causes for that. One of them I talk about in the what I call the five big stuff family rules, that you just concentrate on learning these rules and then let all the other small stuff go, because these main rules are what'll keep everybody safe and happy and everybody can flourish, and one of those the second most important rule is no teeth on humans ever. You just already put that out and people say they get that confused with the rule of no aggression is allowed. But it's really two different things. And they're not seeing what the dog is seeing and what the dog is actually doing and learning. So when they're puppies and you're playing with them and a lot of times they're putting their teeth on your hands this happens a lot with people or they'll play with them with your hands on either side of their mouth. You're like blah, blah, blah and it's oh, it's fun. And people say to me oh, we play this way, he doesn't bite me very hard and it doesn't hurt and he doesn't really mean it. So then there's fate growling and stuff and then but in the dog's mind he's always been able to put I've been allowed to put teeth on human skin there has to be. For dogs it has to be a very black and white line. So we're confusing them by oh, you're allowed to put your teeth on this child's skin or my skin when you're playing with our hands. But then all of a sudden they get bigger and stronger and they start to bite bite because they learn very quickly. If I put teeth on human skin that it's going to make the human very effective. A human is either going to go ow or stop or pull your hand back or drop the treat or give you. The kid's going to drop the toy he had. They're going to get reinforcement for putting their teeth on humans. You think it's a joke and you think it's cute when they're little, but really in all dogs' minds it's always that they've been allowed to put teeth on humans. So when you do this black and white rule of kids should always have a toy in their hand when they're playing, adults should always have a toy in their hand and toys.
Speaker 3:Playing with toys has to be taught sometimes, because dogs just don't automatically play with toys that humans make and traumatized rescue dogs do not play with toys at all. That's part of the reason, how you know how severely they're traumatized, and so it's very important that they have these outlets of these toys and it's very important that the parent and everybody acts like you, act like this toy is the best thing you've ever played with, too, right? So you just keep on directing them to these toys and never allow any teeth to touch your skin. And then the second one is the misunderstanding with kids. There's actually three, because this topic kind of has fingers that go into a lot of different subjects of dog parenting. The ones with kids are everybody's well-intentioned and they have to learn that they cannot nip kids as their kids are running and that this is not a big deal, that kids are running around. Of course they're going to be excited, but you have to redirect so that they play with their toys and that they're never allowed to run after kids and nip them.
Speaker 3:Because even if you see them start to open their mouth like you, give the guidance right then. Ah, step in. No, don't wait for him to bite him. See him, you see him running. You see him going after the kid's elbow or eyeing the kid's heel. Approach things early. Don't wait for him to bite. Early guidance is a dog teaching superpower, so you start to see it earlier and earlier. But regardless, you have to disagree with it every time any teeth goes on a human. But here's what you can do. You've got to get that one second of eye contact. That's the main difference. And then, but here's what you can do, and and super excited about you playing with these toys Then pretty soon, when kids start running around, they will just the dogs will be excited because they want to play. They'll just run over and get their toy and shake it by the kid or run after the kid.
Speaker 3:So you have to be careful too. And this is a subtle one again with kids is that when a baby let's say a baby is just you know they get past that potted plant stage where they're just sitting in a car seat or sitting in a little chair and they start to crawl. Then they crawl and they make these weird noises and everything. And the dog was used to the babysitting and the seed, he's used to the noises, he's used to the smell, and then the baby becomes mobile and starts running, crawling around and then at some point it's going to either reach for the dog the baby's going to put a hand out, reach for the dog or fall beside the dog, and the dog will be like a little concerned, or turn, like he's going to maybe nip, or and you're of course watching this because you're a responsible parent and you're there.
Speaker 3:So you say, you run in and you say to the baby, you grab the baby's hand and you're like we got to be easy with doggies, be careful. You know what I mean, because the doggy was scared. But that's really the opposite of what you should do, because dogs can only learn by guidance in the moment, right. So you have to immediately go in and address the dog, which doesn't seem fair on the surface, but it is. You go in and say to the dog you can't even, don't even be scared, don't be aggressive, don't have that behavior, don't have that mindset. Get that contact, but here's what you can do, and then have them play with the toy. But if you, if the dog sees you in essence correcting the baby, run in panicked.
Speaker 3:First of all, that's the first thing, instead of being emotionally neutral and having your recipe, You're panicked. You come into the baby and you address the baby while the dog's still sitting there, scared or aggressive, and watching you correct the baby and in his mind he's like, instead of playing it down and saying no aggression, he's saying yep, I was right about that. He's doing the dog equivalent in his mind of yep, I was right about that. See, something bad really did happen to me because mom was scared for me and she came in and gave this other family member a correction for it. So it's the opposite of what people think and that's not how you protect dogs is to let them growl at children. It's the most devastating typical dog training advice that's ever been conjured up and I've seen oh, to let dogs growl, so kids know to stay away.
Speaker 3:Yep, they say-.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awful.
Speaker 3:They say don't ever disagree with a growl because next time it'll become a bite. And really it's exactly the opposite, and dogs lose their homes and it's terrible. And trainers tell people that and then they leave. And then I see when the family gets rid of the dog because the trainer's long gone by then. So what I'm doing is challenging these standing. It's a wake-up call.
Speaker 3:The title of the book is a wake-up call. Right, I don't have anything against trainers and most of them have their hearts in the right place, but they know many of the things don't work that they're doing and they know that these things are falling short and they're just turning a blind eye to it a lot of times, and that's that I do have a problem with. And so this is basically a wake up call to dog trainers and parents that what you're seeing out there, and the majority of the popular stuff you're seeing, is the reason why you're having such problems. And so don't lose hope, because there really is something else out there, and it's now. It's an easily form of a book called Don't Train your Dog out there and it's now.
Speaker 1:It's an easily form of a book called don't train your dog.
Speaker 3:Wow, my mind is just blown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's it all makes perfect sense, because a mama pup will correct a baby pup if it gets out of hand right and you run in and do that to a little baby. It's like the dog's also that the little baby just got nipped for being a pain.
Speaker 3:How, how observant they are and how smart they are and how they're watching your face and how they're learning from us. They're intertwined with us. And so what they saw was a panicked parent, the baby doing something wrong, the baby getting a correction for it. And so the next time now the dog remained scared. We didn't play down that. We didn't play down this action to the dog and guide him into believing that this is just no big deal if a baby falls beside him. Okay, this is no big deal. Oh, what's that silly baby doing? Play it down at the end. It's got to end on a good note. It's part of the recipe. So what's that baby doing? What's that baby doing? Get that toy. We'll play with the toy by the baby.
Speaker 3:So removing the dog from the area as long as everybody's safe, removing the dog from the area is the worst thing you can do, only second worst to coming in and correcting the baby in front of the dog. But the dog has to be addressed first because he can only learn in the moment that something is happening or he's feeling something. So he needs that black and white guidance first. You can talk to kids as they grow up. You can talk to them at a later time. You can talk to them about future. You can say here's why I knew the dog was upset, here's why I knew it scared him.
Speaker 1:You can teach human children that way, but you can never teach dogs that way, tell them an hour later about what's going on Exactly. That makes no sense. You're right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, put them in his crate for a while. For a time it doesn't work. That makes things worse.
Speaker 1:They'll forget why they're there and be super confused.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm talking about forgetting within 60 seconds. It's got to be right on that, you got to get to it. And so if you do miss giving this guidance and it's the action or the behavior is over with, even for a few seconds, even 10 seconds, you cannot give the dog the guidance or disagree with anything then because he might misunderstand and not know what you're talking about. It might be like oh, is it because I'm standing here on my bed? Oh, is it because of the kid? They won't know why. That's why I teach exactly how to see when you need to intervene. But if you miss that teaching moment, say you're gone and you've left the puppy out, wasn't ready to be left out and he chewed up the couch when you get home they do not know what you're upset about. They do not.
Speaker 1:I've heard that yeah.
Speaker 3:They know you're upset and so they're cowering, because this person that they're emotionally entangled with is clearly pissed Really upset and they don't know why. Right. They don't know exactly why they might be pointing at something You're like look at that cushion's chewed. And of course they look over at the cushion, they're looking all around, but they don't know exactly what you mean. They just, they just think you're a scary person now, like they think you're unstable because they can't figure out what it is that you're truly upset about oh man, that breaks my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with our, we've done a good job of that with our puppies. Right, we've had three, we have three dogs and with little Bernoulli, when he he's not so little anymore, he's huge. But yeah, that's so critical, right, like when a puppy does something, you have to deal with it immediately, because if you're being, if you're not watching them and they pee, and then you catch it like a half an hour later they've. That's so far gone, absolutely, yeah, which?
Speaker 3:is why I've come up. I came up with the potty potty, perfect potty recipe because it works in a easily in a two week period, even on the worst of the worst cases, and because you control these things that you don't so that you do catch it each time. They only run free right after they have gone potty and you leash them with you what like for 20 minutes after they drink water and you're cause. You're constantly their companion during this puppy phase.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so you're watching. You don't set them up to make the mistakes. So then this but they need parents need a recipe, a full, comprehensive recipe that's easy enough to do, like I said, in regular life, and that actually works. And so the potty recipe in the book does work, and it works. I've used it on every dog, and just consistently, since I finally came up with a full system. I've used it on every dog and just consistently since I finally came up with a full system. And yeah, if you miss something in the moment, you cannot do anything about it, you just make plans to catch it earlier next time. If it's an interaction with a child and it's over with, you cannot address it with the dog. It has to be immediately. So just make your mental notes to yourself, make your plan for the recipe and then just make a plan to catch it early next time, because you cannot communicate to them effectively or have any teaching moment if it's not in the moment for dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and it just came to mind. I was thinking about this the other day. Puppies are incredible at how fast they learn things. If you have a toddler like a baby a toddler running around and you took its diaper off, good luck potty training that toddler the same rate a dog is potty trained yeah, it's true, and it's like the reason why dogs in our modern society basically remain perpetual two-year-olds, in that you've got to constantly keep them from hurting themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to supervise their play with other dogs, whatever, and as they get older, how much you have to watch or don't have to watch. It's just like with kids. But kids will completely outgrow that two-year-old toddler phase and dogs never will. In essence, because we bring them into our environment. Lack of a better word. We trap them inside of our house and we bring them into our environment. We lack of a better word. We trap them inside of our house and we bring them in this neighborhood and then just expect that they know how to navigate this whole thing. And dogs are clearly very smart and they're very capable. And what I talk about in the book is if you were a pack of dogs and dogs when we were living out in the woods all naked, our dogs would be more equipped to.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah Than us. They can dig a hole for safety, they can find food, they can protect themselves. Wake me up if a coyote's behind me, we won't ever. A human is completely vulnerable there, but it's the opposite, because we bring them here and our modern society is like that to them, what it would be to us if we were naked in the woods.
Speaker 1:Oh, I tell you, it snowed today. I would not do well without. I would be cuddling up to our Bernice Mountain dogs for warmth outside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're very capable. It's just that they're going to remain perpetual two-year-olds in our lives and in our families because they, at some point in the history and then their evolution, they chose to be with us.
Speaker 1:Thank God they did.
Speaker 3:I know we're lucky. We're extremely lucky.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you one more question about your book, and I think it's one that I'm curious about. Your book talks about where anxiety in dogs may stem from, and that's what I was wanting you to get your opinion on.
Speaker 3:Yes, people are. Most humans are very and you know I told you that's like exactly the opposite with giving you know, with between kids and the aggression and between kids and dogs. Guidance it's the, it's the opposite of what people think cause their dog to have anxiety and it's because parents are doing the opposite of what they should really be doing. So they are very susceptible to that. All dogs are born with their own personality and more sensitive wiring some than others. But the good thing about dogs is and I have my recipes on fear and anxiety that are in here I've started prescriptions and I'm sorry if we're running out of time because I do want to tell you, like a little overviewing thing about fear is that we have time to take your time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I figured out with dealing with all of these. I've had such traumatized cases where a dog would stand and not move out of its bed, or stand with its head in a corner 24 hours a day, and so it's. I've had the really bad cases and so I finally figured out I couldn't just cure dog fear. Then I finally figured out that there's an unlimited number of things that dogs can be afraid of or anxious about, but there's only three truly resulting levels of fear and anxiety. So there's either unsure, where they have come upon something and they just don't know what to do about it right then, so that we need our guidance. Right then, nope, nope, don't be afraid of that. Or nope, don't know what to do about it. Right then, so that we need our guidance. Right then, nope, this, nope, don't be afraid of that. Or nope, don't be aggressive. Here's what you can do. It's no big deal. Play it down.
Speaker 3:You can use treats in a scenario once they're not afraid of something. Then there's regular, just afraid, where they'll still take treats. I have a fear thermometer in there level. Then you just use, say, your symptoms match the afraid level, which is the there's unsure, afraid and terrified. So there's a recipe for each. If your symptoms on the thermometer for your dog match the afraid one, then you use this recipe. It doesn't matter what they're afraid of, the rest the prescription will work right. You only need to know the level that they're at for fear. So in this middle fear one, if you end on a good note, you can then bring in treats. But in otherwise you cannot introduce treats. You cannot introduce things at the time when dogs are unsure about something or feeling anxiety. You have to bring them past that with your guidance, your verbal guidance and your emotionally neutral and your facial expressions. Bring them through that. Your guidance, your verbal guidance and your emotionally neutral and your facial expressions. Bring them through that and then, when they're not afraid, then go back and use treats to not just make them not afraid but now make them love that certain thing that they were afraid of.
Speaker 3:But the number one thing, the reason why anxiety exists in dogs, is because number one thing parents do not understand how to teach the rules and what's not allowed and how to then fulfill them on the other side of the equation. So they need both of these things and I tell exactly how to do that in the book. But having this what I call firm but supportive parental guidance. Kids need it. They need to hit this middle level where you're firm but supportive and dogs need it. They need firm, supportive guidance. But how you provide that to a dog is exactly different than you provide that to a child.
Speaker 3:So that's where anxiety comes in. Is that the parents don't understand how to provide this firm but supportive guidance. And when dogs understand it and you're giving them that they have everything they need, they're fulfilled. They know that I have a strong parent. I'm not going to be. The parent's not going to go off his rocker all of a sudden and start hitting me or anything. It's not going to. They're not going to yell, but on the other side, they're also not going to let me hurt another family member or another family member hurt me. That is what makes dogs confident and not have anxiety. It's when everybody's like running around, there's no rules and you don't understand exactly how not to teach these rules, and there's anxiety. Comes in, then fear, then aggression. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 3:Good, good. Yeah it's the opposite of what you think it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So really I'm just like sitting here reflecting it's.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that answer. Yeah, so really I'm just like sitting here reflecting it's. Thank you for that answer, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're welcome. I thank you for having me on too, because I this information being spread. I know that with every book that gets into anybody's hands, that I know. That's how confident I am about it, because I've been doing it for so long and I've dedicated my entire life to doing this. But I know, whoever gets their hand on this book, I know that's one dog that's not going to lose his home. I know that's one kid that's not going to get hurt. I know that one dog that's going to be fulfilled and not anxiety ridden and get to live a happy life. I'll talk about this forever to everybody.
Speaker 1:I wish we had hours to talk, because the amount of follow-up questions and just your wealth of knowledge is just so valuable. But I think the more important thing is to ask you where people can get the book.
Speaker 3:Where can people?
Speaker 1:get your amazing. Don't Train your Dog.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that one thing that people will be happy about seeing is that the graphics and the recipes inside are, like I said, they're downloadable on the digital companion. You don't need to get on the website, but when you buy the book you will see the graphics and simple graphics and recipes that you can just so easily read, like a 10 year old child can read it and understand it. So it doesn't have to be the parent just trying to learn it and teach everybody. So anybody who gets this book, I know they'll be happy with the simplicity of it, I should say, and it's available at amazoncom and our website will actually lead you there too and has the digital companion and other resources, and that's parentingfordogscom. Both of those are number four. So on Facebook we're at Angie for Dogs and Parenting for Dogs with a number four.
Speaker 1:Okay, parenting with the number four for dogs Gotcha. Everybody who's listening. We'll make sure the links are in our show notes. So whatever podcast platform you're listening on, just check our show notes and there'll be hyperlinks there. I just I snuck a peek on Amazon Angie, one of the reviews, five out of five. I don't know if you read some of them. The title is where has this been all my life? It's very sweet. Yes, yes, that's very nice. Where has this been all my life?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's the number one thing that dogs, or that parents say to me. When they see all this, they're like how come I haven't seen this before? And then the sad part is then they immediately followed up with I wish I'd have known this with our other dog. No tragedies happened with those other dogs. It's bittersweet, but I'm glad that they have it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can only go forward and change, change for the better. What we didn't know yesterday and we know now makes us better in the future.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's a tool.
Speaker 1:That's a tool in our toolbox. Yeah, angie, before we close, one of our standard questions is we? We challenge all of our guests to give us a super fact. It's something that you know. You're at a party, you get together, family gathering and you tell people. That blows their mind a bit. I was wondering if you have a super fact you could share with us.
Speaker 3:Actually I do. I think one of the probably the most popular one I should say, for lack of a better word, that people just cannot believe it until they see it with their own eyes is that with the techniques I'm talking about and the parenting techniques I'm talking about. It's a separate program but it's on the website but I have a system for rehabilitating feral dogs or dogs that have come from hoarding situations. Dogs that cannot be touched by humans, have never been touched by humans. They suffer for months and months and people just do not believe that until they see it with their own eyes that those dogs can be rehabilitated and be in a home and be happy in a week.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 3:It's not what dog training can do it, but it is possible. So the reason why I picked that one to say right now was because that shows you the incredible capacity and incredible dog mind and spirit that you know we, I think, as humans just do not. We don't have that as much because we don't live in the moment and when dogs really trust us. They're born to trust us and look to us, and when we give them what they want or what they need, they will transform in such a rapid time that it's your people standing there with their mouths hanging open. They can't believe it because everything they've ever experienced with a dog has been hard and taken a long time, if ever, but they're miraculous.
Speaker 1:They're so resilient, hey.
Speaker 3:Yes, they're incredible. They're really an incredible being yeah.
Speaker 1:So, folks, if you've got, if your dog is with you and I'm sure people that are listening you love your dog more than anything do check out the links in our in our show notes for this book and if you want to tackle some of the hard cases or maybe, maybe you're down that path that Angie was sounds like these could help you with the real tough cases. If you work in a shelter or you're looking to rehab some dogs, can people contact you on social media or ask you questions, angie.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, meta is its own challenge. So I've been Angie for Dogs on there for so long and so a lot of people will message me on my post comments. I am looking at that. The rest of the parenting for dogs team is looking for that. And then Instagram at parenting for dogs. It's just getting going on there with the release of the book and everything's being rebranded to the book and any remarks on there. Somebody sees and they can actually contact me through the website parenting for dogscom too.
Speaker 1:Nice, We'll have a. We'll have a couple social links in the show notes as well for the social media folks. Angie, this has been a profound discussion and the time went by all too quickly. Thank you so much for being on our show and just giving our audience more tools in their toolbox to take care of the creatures that we love so much, which are dogs.
Speaker 3:Yes, I really appreciate you taking the time to have me on and, you know, being interested in this subject and being able to spread some incredible, you know, very priceless information for people who love dogs, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to us. Thanks to Angie, who talked to us about her book Make sure you check out the show notes if you'd like to take a look at where you can pick it up. And we'd also like to give a shout out to the top tier of our paid community, the Paw Pack Plus.
Speaker 2:Take it away. Chris Tracy Domingue, susan Wagner, andrew Lin, helen Chin, tracy Halberg, amy C, jennifer Smathers, laura Stephenson, holly Birch, brenda Clark, anne Uchida, peggy McKeel, terry Adam, debbie Anderson, sandy Breimer, tracy Leinbaugh, Marianne McNally, fun Lisa, shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen, for science, empathy and cuteness.