The Science Pawdcast

Season 6 Episode 38: Celestial Discoveries, Canine Conversations and Empathy with Dr. Rick LeCouteur

• Jason Zackowski • Season 6 • Episode 38

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Get ready to uncover the mysteries of the cosmos and the chatter of canines as we explore an episode full of scientific revelations and heartwarming stories. Discover the intriguing insights from the Chandra X-ray Observatory as it peers into the atmosphere of HD61005, affectionately known as the Moth, and what these findings could mean for our understanding of solar systems like our own. Then, we shift our gaze from the stars to our four-legged friends on Earth, where a groundbreaking study on dog communication through sound boards challenges preconceived notions about canine cognition.

Join us for a captivating conversation with Dr. Rick LeCouteur, whose journey from veterinary medicine to children's literature is as inspiring as his stories themselves. Dr. Rick shares how his passion for wildlife conservation evolved into writing and illustrating books that educate and enchant young minds. Expect to hear about his book "Nasty Names Are Hurtful," which teaches empathy and conservation through the story of the misunderstood Australian white ibis, and how balancing whimsy with reality helps ignite a love for nature in children.

As we wrap up, indulge in tales of animal friendship, from the antics of polydactyl cats, like the charming Obi, to the heartwarming adaptations of farm animals. We celebrate the joy of observing bird behavior, with a spotlight on ibises and sandpipers, and revel in personal anecdotes about family pets that bring laughter and warmth to our daily lives.

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Speaker 1:

Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zukoski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hello and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there.

Speaker 1:

This is episode 38 of season six. Oh boy, it's getting close to Christmas. Well, if you celebrate Christmas, it's getting close to Christmas, and if you don't, it's getting close to Christmas. Well, if you celebrate Christmas, it's getting close to Christmas, and if you don't, it's getting close to the end of December. I was looking at pictures from last year and we have way more snow this year than we did last year. I'm looking forward to having some time with the dogs in the snow when I'm on holidays, because last time there wasn't enough to do much of anything which is gonna be a lot of fun, because Bernoulli is experiencing winter for the first time and that's always so fun when a dog gets to do that. All right. Well, what's on the science podcast.

Speaker 1:

This week In science news, chris and I break down some new findings about a sun-like star, lovingly called the moth, and in pet science, a new report talks about those talking buttons that dogs have been trained to touch. Is it real? Is it fake? Should we be skeptical? Are dogs actually using those buttons? And our guest in Ask an Expert, is former vet, retired vet, actually veterinary doctor, current author and illustrator of Nasty Names Are Hurtful. Dr Rick LaCouter. Now, if you missed our live show with him, it was amazing. You're in for a treat because the doc spins a good tale and is a really empathetic person. Okay, let's get on with the show, because there's no time like Science Time. This week in science news, let's head to space. Chris, you know how much I love space.

Speaker 2:

Jason, I know how much you love space.

Speaker 1:

I was very interested in space when I was little and I haven't really lost the wonder of outer space. And our story takes place from the Chandra telescope and they apparently found the atmosphere around a sun-like star.

Speaker 2:

Now this is fairly significant because they actually haven't found this before. They've been searching and searching for many years and have found that this has been elusive finding the atmosphere.

Speaker 1:

If you're wondering what a sun-like star is, it means it's like a similar sized star to us, of a similar age, of a similar type. They found lots of atmospheres around other types of stars, like incredibly hot stars and little red stars, like the Trappist system, stars that are dying, and little baby stars, but the porridge of just that's our star. You're right, chris, it's been really elusive and it's not like other stars like ours aren't out there. They are. It's just really cool we're getting some more detail about a star like ours.

Speaker 2:

Now, the star that they've seen is called HD61005, but they've affectionately called it the moth, because it has disks blowing out behind it that look like wings.

Speaker 1:

What are those things?

Speaker 2:

The wings are debris caused by the star moving through a dense gas cloud. So you're right, it's just junk debris and I know it's crap in space.

Speaker 1:

I love it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it was moving at a speed of about 10 kilometers per second through interstellar space, which is quite quickly. This star is not as old as our sun. It's approximately 100 million years old, which makes it much, much younger than our 4 billion year old sun.

Speaker 1:

It's a little bit younger. It's the same kind of star size and the same star type.

Speaker 1:

But younger stars are more active, jason, and they emit stronger stellar winds, so it's like a child being more active than an adult, maybe so finding the star, the chan, the chandra x-ray observatory, it's a big deal because we know that we exist as life and life exists around a quote sun like star. So, while the star is quite a bit younger, it's a star that we know is of the same type that could support life, because we're the only life that we know in the entire galaxy.

Speaker 2:

It's like the atmosphere is telling us about the sun's history by going looking at that younger star and it's like, hey, that could be the history of our sun.

Speaker 1:

Now some fun things they found out about. The moth is that they detected a halo of x-ray light extending a hundred times the distance between earth and the sun. In astronomical speak, that's one AU or one astronomical unit, and I believe that's well beyond where Pluto would be in our solar system, way past Earth, way past Jupiter, out to the gas giants.

Speaker 2:

And beyond, like Buzz Lightyear, to infinity and beyond.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, now that disk debris is wing-shaped but the atmosphere is round. So that suggests that the stellar wind coming off the sun, which you mentioned, is a lot stronger, because this one's quite a bit younger. It's strong enough to push against the dense gas clouds and more than the cloud pushes back. So the cloud has its own kind of like force and the sun is strong enough to blow it apart, giving it kind of wings, not the Red Bull kind, but the stellar wind kind.

Speaker 2:

Now this star and atmosphere has been viewed through the Hubble Space Telescope because that did provide images of the moss wings shaped dust disk. But the Chandra definitely provided more of the ultraviolet viewing of the disk.

Speaker 1:

This is where our little story ends. Just that they found this star. It's called the Moth. It's of similar size and mass to our sun, and it's a good representative of what we are in the universe. Now it's quite a bit younger, but it's cool. Studying the atmospheres of these sun-like stars can tell us what the sun was like in its youth.

Speaker 2:

But, jason, you say it's cool, but don't stars run hot.

Speaker 1:

That's true, but remember, I don't know, chris, you're always very hot, but I think I was way hotter when I was younger too.

Speaker 2:

That's science news for this week.

Speaker 1:

This week in Pet Science we have a really timely study about those buttons that dogs press that make little sound commands and voices. There's been a lot of. There's been a couple very viral dog accounts where dogs have learned to press all of these buttons and form relatively complex sentences or talk with these buttons. And some of the dog researchers I've spoken to are a little skeptical, not necessarily of simple things like walk and hungry and need to use the bathroom like that kind of things, but more complicated, human-like emotions. So a study was conducted by UC San Diego in their comparative cognition lab.

Speaker 2:

Jason, you're going to have to admit that you came home one day with these buttons because you wanted to try them out yourself.

Speaker 1:

It was a little bit of a gong show. I think it's easier if you only have one dog, but Bunsen pretty quickly figured out that if he pressed the walk button he got to go outside, and then that if he pressed the walk button he got to go outside, and then he just kept hitting the walk button over and over again. So I think I need to watch I should have watched like a video about how to do it properly, because bunsen's really smart and he just realized that if you press walk, walk and then he'd get to go out. I was so happy he was pressing the button, because beaker wouldn't do it. No matter what I did, she wouldn't press the button. But it became super annoying because Bunsen definitely didn't. Maybe he wanted to go for a walk, but I had to put the buttons away because as soon as I put them on the ground he hits the walk button.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but Beaker had us fooled with the jingle bells that we hang by the door, because what she would do is we would take her out to go to the bathroom and we would praise her, and then we would bring her back in, and then she wanted to go outside again. So she just jingled the bells.

Speaker 1:

We just need a little bit more work with those items, I think. So don't take our advice that we're going to go through the study, which is actually interesting. Speaking of that study, the study investigated whether dogs trained to use those sound boards can make two-word button combinations. So, beyond Bunsen hammering the walk button, how many dogs were in the study?

Speaker 2:

They analyzed 152 dogs over a period of 21 months, so almost two years, and they documented more than 260,000 button presses, and actually 195,000 presses were initiated by the dogs.

Speaker 1:

Here's one key finding and it's shocking because I was a skeptic of these buttons, maybe because I didn't do it properly and I just assumed Bunsen just was hitting the walk button because he wanted to go for a walk, and it was a big failure. But in the study they found that dogs used the buttons purposely to express their desires and their needs rather than just mimicking their owners. Because that's happened in the past where people would give like little cues to the dog the big one is dogs that can count right. They'd be like what's five plus seven and a dog has no idea. But there would be a cue the owner would give the dog to stop barking at 12. And I was skeptical of the more advanced dogs clicking all these buttons, but in the study it seemed to be their desires and needs were well met by pushing the buttons.

Speaker 2:

What's really shocking is those two button combinations seem to be intentional and meaningful and definitely not random chance. It was just statistically significant what they found and the commonly used buttons by the dogs focused on their essential needs, such as outside, treat, play and potty, which are four words that are very important to all of our dogs, but some frequently yeah, I know that's true, but the combinations were interesting, like outside and potty together and food and water together, so those are common pairings that you would think maybe a dog wouldn't be able to put together. So, like I said, those combinations occurred more often than expected and so that showed potentially, that dogs are intentionally communicating or trying to communicate.

Speaker 1:

So this leads us to some really crazy and wild conclusions, meaning that dogs could perhaps have more precise communication than we give them credit for. Like Bunsen and Beaker, when they have to go out, they bark right. Beaker barks when she has to go out. But there's evidence in the study that it's not random for dogs to learn that they could press the button for outside and potty or things they really liked to go to. Dogs were pressing things like park or outside and beach, and there's that potential to improve your companionship and the bond between your dogs and yourself, because it's a combined language that we're both familiar with.

Speaker 2:

So sharing that you've always said oh, I really wish I knew what Bunsen and Beaker and Bernoulli were thinking. I know we anamorphize the dogs and give them human-like characteristics, but this is maybe a potential way to have that two-way communication through the buttons.

Speaker 1:

Here's something that is maybe it's cute but it makes me a little sad. In the study, the people in the study were trying to communicate back to the dogs by pressing the buttons, and one of the buttons is an I love you button, and the researchers compared the dog button presses to their owners and the owners far more often were pressing the I love you and that the dogs were not pressing that back. They were pressing other stuff like treat or outside. So that leads credence to the fact that the dogs weren't just like imitating the owner. Like I press the button, you press the button, monkey. See, monkey do.

Speaker 1:

As we near the end of this really wholesome and fun study, one of the things that the researchers are hoping to look at in the future is if some of the buttons can have dogs communicate about past experiences or future events, cause that's one thing that some dog researchers are. They've told me on the show before that dogs have a different sense of time than we do, and it's something that I've said before that dogs live in the now. Have you heard me say that before, chris? Like dogs are very much in the present.

Speaker 2:

That's right, and everything is good, everything is awesome. I love you. It's perfect. Yay, we're going for a walk. Yay, we're cuddling on the couch. Yay, there's food, water, awesome.

Speaker 1:

And putting to the test do dogs have a memory of the past or expectations of the future is very interesting, plus some of the things that researchers are still very skeptical of, and that's the communication of abstract concepts. So those abstract concepts are like a sense of self, or I know there's one that we were tagged in and I didn't want to create a big fuss on social media but a dog was saying was worrying about it if it was going to die. Right, those are extremely abstract concepts the sense of self and the sense of self after death or the process of death, dour and sad. But we can probably think of some other abstract concepts to test with dogs to see if they have that higher level thinking like we do.

Speaker 2:

And the statistical analysis definitely helps. Whether the combinations were random, imitative or intentional, the results showed or suggested deliberate communication from the dogs.

Speaker 1:

So if in the next year we get another study with these dogs pressing buttons, that they can express ideas beyond their immediate needs, I think that would really make everybody think quite differently about dogs. Animal intelligence and dogs are just one of the many animals on earth that may fundamentally change how we view other animals, and that they're much more thinking creatures than we give them credit for, and sometimes, jason, I know I press your buttons- it's okay. I think Bernoulli presses your buttons in the morning some days too.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so I now need to have a new accessory. It's called the tug toy and I need to wear it all the time, every time, because, bernoulli, we were trying to train him to do a thing called take it and give. He translated that to take it and pull on your sweater.

Speaker 1:

Any floofy clothes. Chris has now Bernoulli's like. He follows you in the morning with his mischievous grin, he like, and he's like nips onto it and every morning you're like for newly, let go, trade, let go. And you do like training with them, Like you work, you do really good with them. But he's definitely pushing your buttons Cause we're so busy in the morning getting ready for work.

Speaker 2:

But now I'm going to be accessorized with rope toys.

Speaker 1:

You need a button that says don't do that. Anyways, that's pet science for this week. Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the science podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun.

Speaker 1:

Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the Ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger the science cat has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too. Okay, on with the show. Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have vet neurosurgeon, conservation photographer and author, dr Rick LaCouture with us today. Doc, how is it?

Speaker 4:

going. It's going great. Jason, Thank you very much for having me on the show.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you. Rick. Where are you in the world? Where are you calling into the show from?

Speaker 4:

Northern California, davis, california, which is where my university that I worked at is the University of California at Davis, and that's the biggest vet school in California, so that's where I retired from in 2015.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I have a quick question for you, just about your career. You do a lot of other stuff besides the vet things, and now that you're retired, of course, but when you were young, did you want to be a vet?

Speaker 4:

From the very first days I can remember what I wanted to be, jason. I wanted to be a vet and had tunnel vision and was lucky enough to get into vet school in Sydney, australia, and so the rest of that chapter is history. I have one little word, though. I don't think I ever thought of anything else, and I think that's a shame, because I think if I had my time over again, I might want to be a high school science teacher or a podcaster or a writer or a photographer much early in my life. So in my day people would always first question to a kid was what do you want to do when you grow up? And I had to have an answer ready and I stuck to it. I'm not so much sure it was a choice as a rite of passage.

Speaker 1:

I can tell you, rick, that, like our family, with the dogs and the animals that we've had, we're just so thankful for the people like yourselves that have taken the path to be vets and done work with animals, because they're our family members, right, and you guys out there that are vets and vet techs, you're the first line of defense against the things that go badly for them. Thank you for that work that you did.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely, and not only when things go badly. But of course there's wellness and health checks and being proactive in taking care of your pet before everything happens or anything happens. And that's probably part of veterinary medicine that I missed a little bit by specializing as a neurosurgeon because I didn't get to do the puppy vaccinations and the health checks and all of the very positive aspects. But making a paralyzed animal walk again or removing a brain tumor from a cat is pretty special.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, doug Bunsen. He had a really big health scare in the summer and a massive growth was removed from him and the vet team saved his life. Dr Keyes, the surgeon, and I'm sure, like the doctors that do surgery you did neurosurgery and other doctors You're right, you probably missed that, but he saved our dog's life, right Like we can't put a price on that, like it's.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely not that's, and I'm so happy that Bunsen made it through all that yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Now our conversation could spend hours talking about the stories you have from being a vet and a neurosurgeon, and I might pick your brain a little bit later. But the impetus of our talk is that you're now into writing and illustrating and I was wondering what got you into that, or has that been there your whole life?

Speaker 4:

I've always been a writer, but when I retired in 2015, and I wanted to retire while I still had time to start something over and or to start again I don't look at retirement as an endpoint, but rather a beginning and with a friend, we started a wildlife company, an expedition company. It's her company, but I helped her put it together and I do all the education and go on most of the expeditions. And with that came photography, because you can't go to Borneo or Antarctica without needing a camera. So I learned how to be a photographer and from there, reading books to my grandchildren, I found that they were fantastical and whimsical, which is really important, jason. Kids need that humor in their lives.

Speaker 4:

But there was very little authentic or realistic of younger readers out there who are going to take care of our planet when you and I are gone and they better know about wildlife and biodiversity and conservation, because otherwise they'll never see any of these animals in the wild.

Speaker 4:

So that was the impetus, and it's remained my purpose to get this information in a realistic or authentic fashion, while at the same time having fun and delivering a message to young readers, anything from five or six up to 10 years of age. So that's how I got into it and, by the way, it's the most challenging career I've ever embarked upon. I've been doing it for about six or eight years now, but easily the most satisfying. I just can't tell you what it's like to see the lights go on in a young seven or eight year old when they realize that penguins don't live in houses like they do, but rather live on an ice shelf in the Antarctic and I love doing that. And they don't eat pizzas, they eat krill. If we have just a little bit of that for our youngsters, they're going to balance the whimsical and the fantastical with that and they're going to be much more likely to take care of the planet.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's something about reading to kids that's really magical. I get to see it on the other side when I do science shows for the younger grades in our district and, yeah, seeing them with the I guess the excitement in their eyes as they learn something new and they see something very cool, yeah, it's pretty rewarding and very special Live book readings are my favorite part of doing this, and the questions, particularly the questions from the young females in the audience.

Speaker 4:

The questions are just so amazing, amazing, and I just love it. I can't get enough of it.

Speaker 1:

That is awesome. So let's I guess let's talk about I think is it your newest book called Nasty Names Are Hurtful.

Speaker 4:

Yes, it is. I can tell you a little bit about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know authors don't want to give away everything, but if you could tell us just a little bit about what it is. What's it about?

Speaker 4:

Oh, I'm an open book excuse the pun when it comes to my books, because every child is going to have a different experience from reading the book, and particularly if they read with a parent. So you'll love this. As a science teacher, there's a section up the back of this book Nasty Names Are Hurtful which has facts for parents to learn before they read the book. It's only a little section to read, but it enables them to be prepared to either ask the questions or answer the questions that the kids might ask prepared to either ask the questions or answer the questions that the kids might ask. And so the Australian white ibis is a and that's what the book's about is a magnificent bird in the family, one of 40 species of ibis on the earth. Only three of them live in Australia.

Speaker 4:

And this ibis is a magnificent bird. It arrived in Australia or in Gondwana long before people arrived, and when the Aboriginals came to Australia, they took great care of it. They considered it a sacred bird and they maintained its wetlands. And then people like you and me came along and we dried up the wetlands. And then people like you and me came along and we dried up the wetlands for agriculture and these birds almost went extinct, so they went to the city as environmental refugees and that's where they thrived, and so they live in all the major cities in Australia.

Speaker 4:

But people don't like them. They make fun of them and they call them nasty names, which is where the book title comes from, and they call them names like picnic pirate or bin chicken A bin in Australia is a trash can, right, and yet these birds are magnificent. They are truly survivors and they have survived in an environment that's totally foreign to them, and so I have a high respect for them. I wrote this book so kids will learn about this bird and actually stand back and watch this bird, hopefully, rather than to call it nasty names or chase it or throw stones at it, which is what happens now, and so that was the premise for the book. The message, of course, in the book for kids, beyond the environmental message and the wildlife message, is that you need to know about somebody before you call them a nasty name, because if you take the time to find out something about them, you might just be surprised and the nasty name may not need to be used. Perhaps this person could be a friend.

Speaker 1:

That is a great double message the message of conservation and empathy. All together, that's a great idea for a book. Excuse me, I just looked up. I just Google image searched the ibis bird. Did they have different color heads? Are there different species of them?

Speaker 4:

There are different species of ibris. The one that sort of gets the most press is the sacred Ibris, which is the same one that's found on all the hieroglyphs in the Egyptian tombs. It was actually worshipped in Egypt as a god, small g and it had the name Thoth or T-H-O-T-H a tough word to pronounce, but Thoth was basically the symbol of the universe, very important in Egyptian culture. And so this bird, the sacred ibis, one of the species of ibis, had a very auspicious start, and it's a long way to watch an Australian white ibis and realise that it's the same species as that sacred bird that was so highly revered in ancient Egypt. But I'm hoping we'll get them back up to that status again.

Speaker 1:

That brings a bell, like it's the half man, half bird, like the bird head.

Speaker 4:

Exactly that's what the hieroglyphs look like.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that is so cool. Wondering if there's any birds from birds or animals from canada that were on hieroglyphics at one time, I don't know beyond my pay grade. I can't answer that one I guarantee you, if some ancient Egyptian saw a moose, it would be on some hard-to-reach people. Those creatures are crazy.

Speaker 4:

But they're magnificent at the same time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're something else, yeah.

Speaker 4:

It would be the god of stubbornness. I think yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for giving us a bit of a rundown of the book. I think the title now it makes sense for folks that are listening They'reown of the book. I think the title now it makes sense for folks that are listening. They're like oh yeah, I can get the idea. Oh, I have. When I interview authors I always have a couple of questions. Just I'm curious about them and I'm sure people listening are did you have a favorite part of the book that was fun to research and write, or did was the whole thing just a whole joyous experience?

Speaker 4:

That's an interesting question to contemplate. I think my favorite part of doing it was taking the photographs of the Ibis, because all of the illustrations in my books are derived from my photographs. They don't look like photographs, they look like illustrations, but they're derived from my photographs. And so I think there's one picture in the book where an ibis is pulling a worm out of the ground and that's one of my favourite moments because, of course, as a conservation photographer, you have to wait for that moment, and it wasn't hard to wait, in the beautiful Australian sunshine, in a beautiful park in the centre of Sydney, for this bird to do what they do so well.

Speaker 4:

As a science teacher, jason, you'll be interested. They have a little sense organ or sensory receptor in the tip of their long, long, curved beak and they use that. They plunge the beak into the mud or into the earth and they use that. They plunge the beak into the mud or into the earth and they use that sensor to to sense vibration and on the second thrust with their beak they'll come back with a worm.

Speaker 1:

it's the most amazing adaptation that this bird has it's like the folks that are down there on the beach with the metal detectors and headphones Exactly.

Speaker 4:

The ibis does that without the metal detector or the headphones, and not for metal, but for little vibrations caused by beetles or earthworms.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's wild. I did not know that. That is very interesting. On the heels of that, as you were working, was there any part of the process or anything you learned?

Speaker 4:

that surprised you hurled abuse at these birds and called them bin chickens and picnic pirates, because I hadn't thought about it, nobody had told me, I just jumped on the bandwagon with all the other kids. But now that I know this, I look at them totally differently, and that's actually the message the wildlife message that I hope to get across to children, which is take the time to watch these animals and you will learn so much. Their adaptability, their wonderful presence in the wild is something to behold, and I think kids of today, with lots of ready-made entertainment, need to be shown that to take a little moment and just sit quietly and contemplate nature, whether it be a landscape or an animal or a river or whatever that will add to their life's experience and they'll get so much more out of their lives that's a good message.

Speaker 1:

Their birds are something else to watch. We've been lucky enough to go to the west coast of canada, on vancouver island. It's not someplace that I'm like. I live in landlocked, landlocked alberta, not even near an ocean, so it's a it's a bit of a thing to get to an ocean, and my favorite thing to watch and I can watch them for hours are these little shorebirds that run along the beach. I think they're called sandpipers.

Speaker 4:

Oh yes.

Speaker 1:

Fascinating. They look like a little herd of teeny, tiny, short-necked ostriches just running around in groups. I just can't believe it. I'm like that is the coolest thing ever.

Speaker 4:

They wait for the wave to recede and then they rush out there to find little organisms to eat. Yeah, and the interesting thing about them, when they're in a little flock, have you noticed that they all turn at the same time and then turn at the same time?

Speaker 4:

That's an interesting scientific fact too, because it's like the starlings that fly in the sky and cause those beautiful sweeping clouds of birds, the murmurations, as they're called. The murmurations, as they're called those starlings don't look at the whole picture of how many birds are up there, because there might be 10,000 birds. They pick up visual cues from the seven birds closest to them, and it's the same with the stilts or the sandpipers and lots of those little shorebirds. They pick up their cue to move in one direction or another from the two or three birds next to them. Now, when we as humans watch this happen, it looks as though they're all turning at the same time, but in fact there's a very quick or slight delay between each bird turning, too quick for the human eye to pick up. But they're picking up on just a couple of the birds closest to them and yet the flock moves as one.

Speaker 4:

It's a fantastic piece of science that these little birds, who look as though they are very simple creatures, they have this amazing ability to consider the position in space of their nearest neighbors. I wish humans could do that a little bit more. Have you ever heard of the term? This person invades my personal space. Oh, yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen with the little sandpipers and the starlings. They respect one another's space and so we can still learn a lot from animals. And talking about birds, the magic of watching birds is just beyond description, and it doesn't have to be a fancy bird, it doesn't have to be at the coast, it can be in your backyard. And even the most ubiquitous of birds, like ravens or gulls or sparrows, they are just fascinating to watch, their social interactions, their ability to survive. Nobody serves them a three-course meal at the end of the day.

Speaker 4:

They have to find their food wherever it is, and they're very efficient. The world without birds would be a very sad place.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, I can't believe I couldn't, I don't think I could live through one of our cold winters without the chickadees, because they're the really hardy little fluffy birds that stick out the winters with us. They're just.

Speaker 4:

They're amazing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they are adorable. We have some on our property that are a bit habituated to us, so you can hold your hand out and they'll land and eat seeds from it, so you feel like you've got magic powers a bit, that they'll do that instead of go to our bird feeder absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 4:

When somebody's going to hand feed you, why would you forage for yourself?

Speaker 1:

yeah, okay so you know what? Thank you so much for yourself. Yeah, okay, so you know what. Thank you so much for this little section here about your current book I do want to touch on. You have other books and I was wondering if you could just mention them so folks would know about them.

Speaker 4:

Yes, I have plans to write more. The first book I wrote for my grandchildren was an animal alphabet book, and I know we're limited on time, but otherwise I would ask you which animal you would choose for the letter X, but I won't torture you with that. And then I moved on to a book about a flightless cormorant in the Galapagos, the only species of cormorant that is unable to fly. And he wants to fly and asks all his friends and they say you don't need to fly, you're a magnificent swimmer. So it's about friendship and self-discovery and it's a great little tale. And then the next one I wrote was about penguins and my penguins have a natural habitat of the Antarctic, and it's a story about diversity, acceptance and, again, friendship.

Speaker 4:

Three penguins of different species become pen pals, think that they're all the same because they've told each other about their lives they're black and white, they eat krill, they live in Antarctica and so on, and so they determine that they're going to get together and have a chat. But when they get together at the appointed place at the appointed day, they each think the others haven't turned up because they are in fact different species of penguins. When they work that out, one of them says this is too bad, now we can't be friends, and the other ones say, wait, we already are friends, and so that's the message for the kids. There's a section at the back that talks about all the different species of penguins and has a little section on what the Antarctica is and what the Antarctic is and what a continent is, and again, giving the parents information that they can share gently with the kids throughout the book or even read that section to slightly older kids and learn together.

Speaker 4:

So those are the books that are out there. The alphabet book is undergoing revision right now so it's not available, but the other two are available on any online bookstore outlet. I believe you have Amazon and Barnes Noble up in Canada and if not, you can ask the bookstore. If it's an independent bookstore, you can ask them to order it for you and they can do that and they're readily available. The newest one, the Ibis book, just came out on the 12th of November, so it's hot off the press. It only has one review on Amazon so far, but that's from my best friend, and she always writes me a good, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Speaker 1:

We're definitely going to pick that one up it sounds great and those other books everybody who's listening, as we always do for authors just check out our show notes. There'll be hyperlinks where you can pick them up down in the show notes. Just don't do it while you're driving, remember. If you're driving a car listening to the show, wait till you stop. So, jason, that reminds me of one other thing, and I hope you'll include it in the show.

Speaker 4:

Wait till you stop. So, jason, that reminds me of one other thing, and I hope you'll include it in the show notes, and that is my author website, which has direct links to Amazon and all the other suppliers. You just click on the picture of Amazon and you can read a little bit about the books there before you decide whether they're suitable for your children there. Before you decide whether they're suitable for your children. It also has a section on media, and this podcast, with your permission, will be posted on there so that people will have access to it. Lastly, it has my blog, rick's blog, which includes lots of stories about wildlife and lots of other things in the world that might interest some of your readers, and so if they just go onto my website and click on Rick's blog, they'll have access to all these different stories, and I hope they'll enjoy them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you bet We'll make sure that's one of the hyperlinks as well. I was just going to talk, sorry, excuse me. We brought penguins and I've spoken to the director of Middle Island and that's one of the most fascinating penguin stories. That mixes with dogs, I think.

Speaker 4:

Yes, absolutely. They're amazing little birds, some of them not so little. Of course, the king penguin and the emperor are larger, but it's interesting that the first two books that I wrote that are available, one on the flightless albatross and the other one on the penguin. They both are great swimmers, but the albatross swims with his I'm sorry, I said albatross and I meant cormorant. The flight was cormorant, although I was writing an albatross book today, so that's why the term was in my head Another magnificent bird. But the penguin swims with his feet and his arms are just flippers which only steer, and the cormorant sorry, I've got it all wrong the cormorant swims with his feet and his wings don't contribute. The penguin swims with his flippers, his arms and his feet are tucked in. So it's interesting that these two bird species, both of whom swim for their food, one uses its arms to swim the penguin and one uses its feet to swim the cormorant.

Speaker 1:

It just illustrates the wonder of nature, you and I could sit down for a week and not come up with that. The flightless cormorant is such a cool bird um.

Speaker 4:

They have an iridescent blue eye, don't? They if I they do an aquamarine or right.

Speaker 4:

Uh, turquoise eye, it's beautiful yeah, they're so striking and the rest of them is just the color of lava, because that's where they live, on the lava flows of the newer islands of the galapagos. The westernmost islands are the new ones coming up with volcanic activity out of the ocean and that's where this bird lives. So it's a very drab bird that blends perfectly with its chosen landscape. But it has this brilliant eye. That's great that you know that that's you.

Speaker 1:

That puts you in the one, one hundredth of one percent of people on our planet oh, I was just talking about charles darwin with my class the last couple days and I was doing a little bit of research about the galapagos and that was something that came up and I just it was so striking and I had forgotten the name of it until you said flightless cormorant and I was like, oh yeah, that was something that came up and I just it was so striking and I had forgotten the name of it until you said flightless cormorant and I was like, oh yeah, that was the one with the really cool eye that the kids just thought was the neatest thing. When the and I put the picture up on the boards and I'm sorry for calling it out at an albatross.

Speaker 4:

I do know the difference. And there is a an albatross that nests in the galapagos. It's called the, the waved albatross, and if you go there you can get up very close to this magnificent huge bird. But we are talking about the flightless cormorant.

Speaker 1:

Is the waved albatross, the one that crash lands because it can barely land properly?

Speaker 4:

No, the waved albatross has a very elegant landing mainly because it lives on the Galapagos Islands and the islands that they live on. There's almost always a decent wind blowing, and so they've mastered the art of landing into the wind with their wings just outstretched and they actually come in and do quite a quite an elegant landing. Okay, I got that wrong with another albatross then oh, there are so many different albatrosses and there's some that are a lot bigger than the waved albatross oh, very cool.

Speaker 1:

I could talk about wildlife with you. With you forever. It's a passion of mine as well, so that's just so awesome. Before we get to our standard questions, rick, are you working on anything in the future you can let us know about? I can?

Speaker 4:

The next book is finished and I'm just working on the illustrations.

Speaker 4:

Now I do my own illustrations and that actually takes a lot longer than writing the book, and that actually takes a lot longer than writing the book. But it's about a red-billed oxpecker, which is also known as the tick bird in Africa, and the tick bird is that little brown bird with a red bill or a yellow bill. There's a yellow-billed oxpecker as well, but they remove the ticks from the mammals in Africa and they perform a wonderful public service at the same time as they get a meal. And the book is about a little red-billed oxpecker and a big rhinoceros. And it's about friendship, because no one would think that a little bird that is the size of a stapler and a huge rhinoceros could become best friends. But because they find common ground, which is the bird takes the ticks off the rhino and the rhino in turn provides the ticks or meals for the bird, they become great friends. And the message for the kids is that friendship should depend on who the person is, not what they look like.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for talking to us about your book. It's really fun to talk to authors that have such a passion for what they do and as you both write and illustrate it, that is an absolute ton of work. So you do have you must have passion for it, which is awesome. As we get to the end, we have a couple standard questions we ask all our guests to share. One is for a pet story from your life. Our audience loves when our guests share stories about their pets and I was wondering if you have one for us, rick.

Speaker 4:

I have many. You had warned me that this question might be coming up today and I've been. By process of elimination. I've come up with a story about the sweetest orange cat in the world who recently passed away, but his name was Obi, which is spelt Obi for orange boy, and I happen to think that orange boys are the best cats in the world. He had an unusual number of toes. He had too many toes, so he was, in scientific terms, he was called a polydactyl, which means too many fingers, and Ernest Hemingway, of course, was known in the 30s to have a Snow White cat by the name of Snow White. That was a polydactyl and he, of course, Hemingway, moved to Key West in his later years and you can still visit his polydactyl cats, or descendants of his polydactyl cats, at the Hemingway Museum and his house is there in Key West. It's a great visit. They're wonderful cats.

Speaker 4:

Anyway, why would I tell? Oh, they were also known as ship's cats, which they used to be much coveted by sailors in the days of sailing ships because they were thought to be without any proof, without any evidence to be great at catching rats and mice, which of course were a problem on these ships. And whether or not that's true. My cat Obi would not support that theory, but that's the rumor. As to how they got to North America from Europe was on these ships, because they were captured and kept on the ship to catch the mice.

Speaker 4:

The question I'm often asked is are these extra toes functional? And the answer, with my little cat Obi, is absolutely yes. So he would go over to his crunchy bowl and he would pick one crunchy at a time up with one of his front feet. He was ambidextrous, he could use left or right and he would lift them up to his mouth. He would bite the crunchy in half and while he was chewing that he would hold the remaining half in his paw, just as a human might. I realized that all cats have this potential.

Speaker 4:

It's just that cats other than polydactyls don't have an opposable thumb, and so it's really really fascinating to watch this guy. And, by the way, I know it's on the tip of your tongue to ask me how many toes. The world record holder happens to be a Canadian cat, and I thought that was a great bit of trivia, oh my goodness, jake. And Jake had 28 toes. Normally cats have four on each paw, and so he had 28. And you can do the math on that. And my cat, obi, had 26.

Speaker 4:

So he was almost the world record holder. So that's my cat story, or my pet story from my life. He was the sweetest creature ever.

Speaker 1:

We have an orange cat too, Doc, and she's pretty sweet as well.

Speaker 4:

They're magnificent, their temperament is magnificent.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, very chill. Just like even Steven. They're in charge, aren't they? Yeah, that's true. She is the boss of the dogs. Yeah, that's true, yeah.

Speaker 4:

I learned the hard way the meaning of the word inscrutable when I called a student that one time and the classroom stopped in its tracks because no one knew what inscrutable meant. And as I was panicking that I was going to be fired for abuse, the voice came from the back of the room, a young man who I knew was on the internet most of the time and he yelled out it's okay, dr Lakuta. Inscrutable means mysterious and enigmatic. So I had inadvertently complimented this student but in the process learned the meaning of that word and I always thought that my cat Obi was inscrutable. He just had that mystery and he was an enigma, so the word inscrutable fit for him.

Speaker 1:

Ah, I like that. Thank you so much for sharing your pet story. That is, that's really cool. I'm going to Google up that Canadian cat when we're done talking. As we near the end of our chat, I challenge all of our guests to share a super fact with us. It's something that you tell people and it blows their mind a bit and keep it for a party or a get together or a family shindig, and you just got that thing in your back pocket. I was wondering if you have a super fact.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I thought about this a lot and I misinterpreted the question I thought you were going to ask, so this is going to have to be totally unrehearsed. A super fact is that the King of Thailand, who is now deceased, but Prince King, and I can't pronounce his name, it begins with an O was one of the world's greatest dog lovers. In his white Rolls Royce with his motorcycle escort as he drove around Thailand to greet his subjects, he would stop for any stray dog and he had a large kennel of dogs and he's really the founder of animal shelters because he would rehome these dogs. And so that's the king of Thailand, and you have to think that he shared that humanity or animality with his subjects, because he was highly revered and I have many stories about him from my times in Thailand.

Speaker 4:

I actually went to Thailand one time to attend to the king's dog, tong Dang. He gave all of his personal pets royal names, which meant that they had to be treated and managed like royalty. Tong Dang ate better meals than you or I will ever eat, and I was called there to examine the king's dog. So I actually got to meet him and I visited his dog kennels. And so this story comes full circle.

Speaker 4:

Circle because that's how I found out what an amazing job he did in animal welfare and with animal welfare. And when I visited his kennels because all of these stray dogs were given royal names I couldn't go into their kennel with my shoes on. I had to leave my shoes at the gate and, of course, if you've been into a large dog kennel, it's not exactly the place you want to be walking in your stocking feet. Yes, but I made it through that experience and so that's my super fact today to share is that the king of Thailand. Super fact today to share is that the King of Thailand which, of course, is not surprising when you think of the Thai's reverence for animal kind the King was the founder of the first animal welfare organization in that part of the world.

Speaker 1:

That is a super fact. I did not know that. Very cool. I guess that's the thing we need to think of giving our dogs royal names so we can treat them like royalty. But I think most dog owners they think of their dogs as being special.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely. I've got to tell you. I've got to tell you, Jason, getting in to see this dog was something else. I went down to the King's Southern Palace, which is quite a drive from Bangkok, and was driven in the King's white Rolls Royce with a motorcycle escort, and the windows in the Rolls Royce were tinted. So everybody thought that it was the King coming, and the reception I got will never be repeated in my lifetime. It was unbelievable how people would rush to the side of the road. It was like being in the Macy's Day Parade and being the biggest and best of those balloons. And so I got down to his southern palace and felt somewhat regal after this treatment, which I didn't deserve but which I had received. And then getting into his southern palace was another trick altogether, because there were 10,000 troops stationed there and they love their king and protect their king, and it was the most thorough, let's say, examination that I've ever experienced.

Speaker 1:

That is a fun story, having people rush out and yeah, too bad. Very cool for you. Maybe they were a little disappointed. It would probably be the same way they didn't know because they couldn't see that. Oh, they couldn't see that's right. So no harm, no foul, no harm, no, exactly. And I soaked it that it was. Oh, they couldn't see that's right. So no harm, no foul, no harm, no foul, exactly.

Speaker 4:

And I soaked it in. I felt very much Yul Brynner in the King and I that movie where he's the king of Thailand. Is it Julie Andrews who's in that movie as well, and I felt very much like the king in the King and I. Of course that was appropriate, because that was also set in Thailand.

Speaker 1:

That is a great super fact. Ah, very cool. Ah, man, we were out of time, but that just you. What a great. I've got followup questions that have followup questions.

Speaker 4:

Just from this last super fact, I appreciate that I've been very fortunate to have some of those experiences. Jason, I feel very blessed about that. That's cool.

Speaker 1:

I'm so thankful you gave up some of your time to talk to us. This has been such a fun chat. We'll make sure that your website is linked in the show notes and a couple places folks can grab your book will be linked in the show notes. And my last question before we close are you, rick, are you on social media anywhere, or would you prefer people just to places folks can grab? Your book will be linked in the show notes. And my last question before we close are you, rick, are you on social media anywhere, or would you prefer people just to go to the website?

Speaker 4:

I am on social media. I'm under my name on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, but the website gives most of the information and if people are excited by what they read on the website, then by all means they're welcome to follow me on linkedin, facebook or or instagram. On instagram I mainly just photograph. I mainly just post my wildlife photographs. On LinkedIn, I discuss children's picture book writing and some of those things, and on Facebook it's largely whatever takes strikes my fancy in that moment.

Speaker 1:

All right Sounds good. We'll have maybe one or two of your socials linked as well in the show notes. We're going to have to wrap it up, even though I've got all these follow-up questions. And again, thank you so much for giving up some of your time to chat with us on the Science Podcast, so appreciate it. And I've got nieces and nephews. I think we're going to grab a book or two from you.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, they come in hardcover and softcover. I'm being bothered to do an e-book but I don't want to contribute to any more screen time, so I'm resisting that pressure. But the hardcover, while it's a little more expensive, there's just something about holding a hardcover children's book that endures and of course the books endure better than the softcovers too. But the soft cover are the most popular. But the hard cover to me is the real experience, or the ultimate experience.

Speaker 1:

Oh, perfect. Best wishes in the future, rick, and thanks for being our guest today. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Okay, it is time for story time with me, adam. If you don't know what story time is, story time is when we talk about stories that have happened within the past one or two weeks. I have a story, I have a story about some of the cats on the farm. It's getting cold. It's getting cold here. It wasn't for a little bit, it wasn't getting cold for a little bit. There it got super cold. In like October when I was on jury duty, when I had jury duty, it was cold and then it got not cold, it got hot. And then it like in the middle of November and like in the beginning of December this month December it got warm, like the snow melted and there was like no snow. It was crazy. And now it's cold again. Now it's like it's getting. It's getting to the canada temperatures. It's not there. It's weird this year's this year's weird anyway. It's getting cold and the cats at the farm I have realized that it's getting cold and they're snuggling more together.

Speaker 3:

It's something that they do. They snuggle more together in the winter. They get close with their buddies and they snuggle and they clean each other and then in the summer they get as far away from each other as they possibly can and lie down on the linoleum floor. I think it's linoleum. Is Papa's floor linoleum? No, oh, it's tile they lie down on. I think it's linoleum. Is Papa's floor linoleum? No, oh, it's tile. They lie down on the cold tile floor. That's what they do. They're cute together because they'll lay down and Papa has this little basket and they'll try to fit as many of them into the little basket. Sometimes the basket falls and they have to jump out. But yeah, speaking of falling, ginger tried to jump on the counter today and slipped and fell. She missed the. She missed the counter by a little bit. But yeah, that's my story is that the cats are snuggling up because it's getting cold. Oh, also, annalise saw beaker and ginger snuggling the other day um they were getting nice and cozy with each other.

Speaker 3:

Even they put aside their quarrels and and laid down together and we're sleeping. Um, Annalise can probably send you the photo. Dad, yeah, that's my story. Uh, mom, do you have a story?

Speaker 2:

I sure do. Advent continues with the dogs and with Ginger, and it's a lot of work with the three dogs now, like when Jason and I first talked about having one dog, that was great, and then we had two dogs and it was a lot more work and we thought, what about having one more dog? It won't be that much work. That's fake news, it's a lie. It's a lot of work with the extra dog, but we wouldn't trade Bernoulli in at all for nothing. But it's a lot of work doing Advent with three dogs and they're large dogs. It's quite full in front of the studio sheet, I guess.

Speaker 2:

But I want to talk about Ginger. In years past she has had no interest in the toy. This year it's crazy she loves most of the toys. In fact today she took one of her old toys out of the advent box because I have to keep them separated, otherwise um Beaker will run around the house with them because Ginger doesn't really play with the toys. But Ginger pulled it out of the box and was like, hey, this is my toy from yesterday, and so that was super cute, and she didn't mind today's toy either. So that's Ginger for you. You just never know. And that's my story.

Speaker 3:

All right, Dad, do you have a story?

Speaker 1:

I have a couple ones. Uh, earlier earlier this week I was in a magazine photo shoot. A little weird, um, I guess the Alberta teacher association thinks what I'm doing is good, so they're doing some kind of story on me, um and what, what I do for science, education and with the dogs. And Bunsen came with me to take a bunch of photos. I loved doing the photo shoot with him because he's such a good boy.

Speaker 1:

The photographer's like hey, I know it might be a lot to ask, but do you think you could get Bunsen to sit on this mark? And I'm like you obviously don't know what Bunsen can do, because he sat on a mark on a red carpet in a costume with kids taking pictures behind them in cosplay costumes. So I said Bunsen, sit. And he just sat there. And then I was like, do you want him to wear his safety glasses? And the photographer's like that would be cool. So, just, good boy, bunsen did such a great job. Very proud of that guy.

Speaker 1:

And the other smaller story is Bernoulli came to my school today. It was a professional development day and I brought him to my school quite selfishly because he's fun to have around and he got to get some pets and cuddles from teachers and experience the hustle and bustle of the school. That's a little more busy than it is on the weekend Definitely made my day go by a lot faster because after I was done marking or had a meeting, I could spend some time with Bernoulli. That's my story for this week.

Speaker 3:

All right. Thank you so much for listening to Storytime. I hope to see you all on the next podcast episode.

Speaker 1:

Bye-bye. That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the Science Podcast. Again, we'd like to really shout out our paid membership on the Paw Pack. They allow Chris and I to do the podcast for free and a bunch of other stuff. So check out the show notes to sign up as a member of the Paw Pack. Chris, let's hear those names.

Speaker 2:

Bianca Hyde, mary Ryder, tracy Domingue, susan Wagner, andrew Lin, helen Chin, tracy Halberg, amy See, jennifer Smathers, laura Stephenson, holly Burge, brenda Clark, anne Uchida, peggy McKeel, terry Adam, debbie Anderson, sandy Brimer, tracy Leinbaugh, marianne McNally Fun, lisa, shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen, brianne Haas, linda Sherry, carol McDonald, catherine Jordan, courtney Proven, donna Craig Wendy, diane Mason and Luke Liz Button.

Speaker 1:

Wendy, diane Mason and Luke, liz Button, kathy Zerker and Ben Rathart For science, empathy and cuteness.