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The Science Pawdcast
The Science Pawdcast breaks down the latest science happening in the human world AND the pet world.
Each episode will also bring you a guest to enthral you with their area of knowledge.
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Pets and Science, it's the pawfect mix.
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The Science Pawdcast
Episode 35 Season 6: Bunsen's Tapeworm Cyst and the Transformative Pet-Human Bond with Denise Mange
What would you do if your beloved pet faced a life-threatening crisis? Our family went through this unimaginable experience when our cherished dog, Bunsen, suddenly fell ill. Initially feared to be bloat, a dire condition for large dogs, the vet discovered a massive 10-pound growth in his abdomen. We share the emotional whirlwind of those tense days leading up to Bunsen's successful surgery and miraculous recovery—a story that resonated so deeply, it will be featured on CBC news.
Strap in for a gripping exploration of Echinococcus multilocularis, a parasitic tapeworm that poses serious risks to both animals and humans. We unravel the complexities of diagnosis and prevention, with expert insights from author Denise Mange. Her expertise in dog training and pet behavior provides a rich layer to our discussion, offering invaluable guidance on safeguarding your furry friends from such threats.
Our journey doesn't stop there. Dive into the transformative power of the pet-human bond, where we explore how pets mirror our mindset and emotions. Through Denise's expertise, discover how positive reinforcement has revolutionized dog training, fostering not just obedience but mutual growth and understanding. We also touch on holistic pet care, using Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a framework to ensure our companions are not only safe and secure but also emotionally fulfilled. Join us as we celebrate the profound connection with our pets, and learn how they can guide us in finding our authentic selves.
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Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zukowski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there.
Speaker 1:This is episode 35 of season six On the show. This week it's a special news slash science, slash pet science because Chris and I are being interviewed by the CBC. A reporter from the CBC named Nancy reached out. She's a big fan of Bunsen, beaker and Bernoulli and she wanted to do a story about Bunsen's miraculous recovery from his wild cyst that grew in him and nearly killed him in August. Chris and I break down the whole story, the science behind it and what the parasite is. To give you a little bit of background on that whole situation.
Speaker 1:Our guest in Ask an Expert is Denise Monge, who's the founder of Pet Piranha and the author of Translating your Pet's Behavior. It's a great discussion with a really interesting way to look at how to train your dog. Okay, the bad joke A parasite walks into a bar and the bartender says, hey, we don't serve your kind in here. And the parasite replies well, you're not a very good host. Okay, on with the show, because there's no time like Science Time. This week in science news we are going to be doing a science news item, and the reason why we're not doing a science news item is that our family is the news, chris.
Speaker 2:We are in the news.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the CBC is coming to talk to us tomorrow about Bunsen and I thought we would break down some of the science behind why they're coming to talk to us. Mid-august was a really stressful time for our family. It had a really good ending so I don't want to freak anybody out, but on August 15th in the summer, bunsen went into severe medical distress. You were working out and I had just got back from my workout and Bunsen had thrown up that morning, I believe. Do you remember that, chris?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I texted you first thing in the morning on my way out. And I said, Bunsen threw up this morning and you're like, oh, he pukes sometimes and it's true. It has been true where he has vomited, but I just wanted to let you know that he had, so it was on your radar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I got home and he had thrown up again. Yeah, and I got home and he had thrown up again. And that's concerning like twice in a row, like that. He has puked twice in a row, like it's not something out of the realm of possibility. But then 15 minutes with him I knew something was horribly wrong. He was pacing and he was uncomfortable and he was crying to go out and and when I took him outside he started to continuously vomit. So very scary. And then he couldn't vomit up anything and he couldn't get comfortable. He tried to lie down outside, he tried to stand up, he was pacing and all of these things are symptoms of bloat.
Speaker 1:If you have a big dog, you should probably do some research about what bloat is. So I had texted you and I said where are you? And you're like I'm on my way home. And I said as soon as you get here, we need to take Bunsen into the emerge. I don't want to freak you out, but the minute you get home we have to take Bunsen to emerge because if it is bloat, it's a life and death situation. I think if you weren't moments from home, I would have taken him myself.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, but I my appointment was just down the road and I was on my way home already and I was able to meet you there Now to talk about bloat. When we were there initially, she or the vet tech did say that small dogs can get bloat too. It has to do with the barrel chest of the dog. But we were very stressed and I don't know that we were taking in a lot of information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, we've talked about this before on the podcast, the whole situation. I don't know if we should rehash the whole thing. Long story short, it wasn't bloat, it wasn't presenting as bloat. When they started to do some of the triaging of Bunsen and when they scanned him, that's when they found this massive unknown thing inside of his abdomen and Dr Keyes said that they were going to keep him overnight to ready the team for surgery the next day, making sure everybody's fresh he was stable. They were keeping him stable, but it was like a life or death situation. They were keeping them stable, but it was like a life or death situation and that would be August 16th. And there's all of these ironic things about August 16th. But good and bad, because the surgery was on August 16th and we were told Chris, there was a chance he would die Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was awful, yeah, so we went in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, august 16th, ironically, is when Robert Bunsen himself died the scientist on August 16th. Ironically is when Robert Bunsen himself died, the scientist on August 16th. And I didn't tell anybody that because I didn't want to freak anybody out, because that was pretty crazy that Bunsen was named after the scientist and the day the scientist died was the day Bunsen was going in for surgery. And then again, making a long story short, the surgical team saved his freaking life. It was incredible.
Speaker 2:So incredible, Such a miracle that happened for Bunsen with the his ability to survive and actually continue to thrive because he's getting so much better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's so healthy now. So the happy news is he's good. But what the team pulled out was enormous 10 pound thing growth, this fleshy ball Unbelievable. We had pictures of it. We couldn't believe this was in him. We felt guilty that he was living his life with this massive growth inside him.
Speaker 2:Just to put it in perspective, the growth was 20 centimeters by 15 centimeters yeah that is massive inside his body and you might say, how could you miss that? Bunsen is very fuzzy, but we were noticing like hey, that's weird, you're maybe putting a little weight on oh boy, you gained some weight and it's just so awful thinking back.
Speaker 1:It was because of his growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, his harness was tight, not because of weight gain, it was because of mass gain. Yeah, and to say that, because recently he had been going through some other health issues, such as the severe atrophy on the one side of his face. We had been going to the vet and he had gained 10 pounds according to the scale and I'm like that is weird because we haven't changed his diet and like that that should have sent alarm bells going off in my brain more than it did, more than all. That's weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the growth was sent away to figure out what it was. And then we had to wait a long time and I, we were getting anxious and frustrated maybe a bit, not with anybody in particular. We were just so worried it was cancer, right, like we didn't want him to survive this thing, only to say, oh yeah, and it's cancer and not great. But what came back was shocking. It was an Echinococcus cyst, and that's what our news item today is going to be about is what Echinococcus is, specifically Echinococcus multiocularis. It's a specific type of tapeworm.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is considered one of the most dangerous species in the Echinococcus genus due to its aggressive and tumor-like behavior.
Speaker 1:And when you think of a tapeworm you think of these great, big, long things. But no, these tapeworm are tiny, Like the average size of an adult tapeworm. The Echinococcus tapeworm is 1.2 to 3.7 millimeters, so they're really small.
Speaker 2:And one of the most terrifying parts, after we had gotten over the shock of hearing Bunsen as a host of a tapeworm cyst, was that this parasite is zoonotic in nature, meaning it is transmissible between animals and humans. So we were very worried that maybe we were also carriers of this parasite.
Speaker 1:Now, if you've heard tapeworm before, the absolutely wild thing is that Bunsen was in the wrong life cycle part of this worm. There are definitive hosts, so those are the carnivores in the wild foxes and coyotes, I guess wolves too. Occasionally, domestic dogs and cats can also serve as these definitive hosts. But a definitive host has the adult tapeworm and it lives in their intestines and it goes through its life cycle and it, like it, weakens the dog cause it's eating the dog's food, so they'll lose weight and the dog poops out the eggs. And then, chris, where was Bunsen? Why was this so weird?
Speaker 2:Because he was the intermediate host. So typically the small mammals, particularly rodents such as mice, which we definitely have a lot of here on the farm, because the eggs are shed in the feces of the infected carnivores.
Speaker 1:The eggs actually contaminate the environment, which includes the soil, the water and the vegetation, and we all know the little mice eat the vegetation and the eggs actually hatch in their intestines, releasing the larvae that penetrate the intestinal wall and actually can spread to the organs, especially the liver, and actually can spread to the organs, especially the liver, and here comes the definitive host that eats the intermediate host and the cyst that is forming is that little proto tapeworm that has spread to their organs or inside the mice body and the body of a mouse makes a little protectiveleshy meaty but like ball around the proto tape worm and then, oomph, gets eaten by a coyote and then that starts the life cycle again. The proto tapeworm becomes a full-on tapeworm in the coyote, moves to its intestines and starts making eggs again.
Speaker 2:And at that point I was disgusted, but I was fascinated Because parasites are gross.
Speaker 1:They're pretty nasty. Another reason why this is so incredible is that Bunsen's organs weren't affected by the cyst. It was a very dicey surgery. It was in his abdomen and it attached to his liver, but it wasn't in his liver. And then they surgery it was in his abdomen and it attached to his liver, but it wasn't in his liver. And then the other place it was attached to I still I shudder to this day.
Speaker 2:And it was what chris it was attached to his aorta and like the week before we had climbed the mountain and we're like, let's go, buddy, and he's, and he's like, okay, maybe I don't feel good, but he did it Like he was a champ. And it's just so true that dogs give you their all until they can't. And boy oh boy, on August 15th, bunsen couldn't.
Speaker 1:He held on as long as he could.
Speaker 2:And then he was like no, I'm in serious medical distress. Yeah, quite gross when humans are infected by eggs. And then he was like no.
Speaker 1:I'm in serious medical distress. Yeah, quite gross when humans are infected by eggs. Very rarely can a human become an intermediate host like Bunsen. And humans have been known to get those cysts in their body, mainly the liver, but it takes years to get to a size that would have you'd start to have symptoms in a person. And we asked, like Dr Keyes, like how long has this been in Bunsen and his? I was shocked. I think he said a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, a long time.
Speaker 1:Which, from my research, is years, years and years. This has been in Bunsen growing to this enormous size and he didn't, because Bunsen didn't get eaten, it just kept growing.
Speaker 2:That little prototype tapeworm wanted to protect itself and just kept protecting itself, which harmed Bunsen. Essentially, it was killing Bunsen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he would have died and and oh my god, there's so many, we're so lucky in so many ways like if they had biopsied it it could have exploded and killed him instantly. That's one thing, that if they're like, oh, maybe we should biopsy to see if it's cancer that could have killed him, it have burst. There's so many wild scenarios with this Just wild.
Speaker 2:And the other wild part is they were blind going in. They had no idea what it was because initially they thought it was his stomach and thought maybe he ate a ball and we're like maybe.
Speaker 2:Maybe, Because you never know, bunsen does not play with toys. He doesn't do it unless he plays with toys, but I can't see him eating a ball, like that was bizarre. But you never know. And then Dr Keyes says we're going in blind. We have no idea what we're going to see until we see it. And he actually said that he is fascinated by surgery and was really excited to go in with the challenge of what could this possibly be?
Speaker 1:Yeah and fricking. The whole team is brilliant, chris, they saved his life Like unbelievable. Like when Dr Keyes pulled it out, there was like the whole vet clinic was watching. They just couldn't believe what this was. They didn't know what it was. And I think Dr Keyes like on the thing, they sent it away to Calgary to get tested. He's like I have no idea what this is.
Speaker 2:No, actually, I'm actually looking at it right now and it says presumptive diagnosis and the words are no clue. No, clue. No clue.
Speaker 1:Right Now to give you an idea how rare this is. We've spoken to other vets like they've contacted us through social media and they're like we learn sorta that there's like this off chance dogs could get it in vet school at some point. They're like, okay, this is a conicocus dogs could get the tapeworm and then their anti-parasitical drugs you can get. If they get the tapeworm, could they get a cyst? Probably not, and then that's the end of it. These vets have reached out to us and they've never heard of this, ever in their entire practice. Ever have they heard of a dog getting tapeworm cysts like Munson.
Speaker 2:Yes, also Dr Keyes. His word was. It's extraordinary.
Speaker 1:I kept seeing that over and over again. It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2:It's extraordinary.
Speaker 1:And you got to as a surgeon that opens up animals every day that it has to be extraordinary for a surgeon to say that, because I'm sure they've seen some crazy stuff. Now if you're wondering about what's the treatment if your dog gets this, probably it won't, but really the only way you can fix it is surgery. There's anti-parasitic drugs that could inhibit its growth, but it doesn't stop the cyst. The cyst will always be there. You have to take it out. You have to surgically remove it, and that goes the same for humans and in our research on this, sometimes, where the cyst is, it's inoperable. And then you have to choose palliative care. For the dog you could choose euthanasia, and for a human it becomes palliative care. There's no way you could remove it safely without the death of the person it's infecting.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. The primary site of infection in humans is the liver, and that is affected in nearly all cases 98% and it resembles a slow-growing tumor, and so some common symptoms that humans can experience are abdominal pain and weight loss, fatigue, jaundice, if their bile ducts are blocked and the larvae can spread to other organs, such as the lungs, the brain and the bones.
Speaker 1:If you want some nightmare fuel, you can YouTube search cyst removal, because there are videos of it and I wished I didn't do that, but I'll just leave that to folks that are listening.
Speaker 2:Jason, sometimes you can't unsee things. When you Google and search, you can't unsee and you can't unlearn. So sometimes ignorance is bliss. But these tapeworms aren't endemic to our area. But these tapeworms aren't endemic to our area. They are typically found in Central and Eastern Europe, russia and Central Asia, china and. Japan and not really parts of Calgary and Red Deer, alberta.
Speaker 1:We got I forgot to tell you this, chris a dog parent on Twitter DM'd us and they got a rescue dog from the Middle East that had a cyst in it as well, just like Bunsen, so that's another possible case. In all of Canada that's two Bunsen and this other dog, so I'll have to follow up with that person. We've had a busy week. That's what CBC is coming to talk to us about tomorrow, so we'll have links on social media to if and when it airs and if anything. Now, chris, you and I are pretty well-read on Aconococcus oculosomethingorotherus multi-ocularis, the little parasite that lived within Bunsen as a proto-tapeworm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing that we are going to do although he has been diagnosed and it has been removed, some more diagnosis techniques are ultrasound, and they are able to detect cysts in the liver, but the CT scan and the MRI can assess the cyst structure and the potential spread, and so that's one thing that we're interested in doing at a later date, when Bunsen feels A++ is to maybe send them in again for another scan, just to make sure if there's any prototype worms living in him going for a ride. One thing that we did do, though, is we sent away his poop to detect if there were any antibodies, and that's something that humans can do as well.
Speaker 1:If Bunsen did test positive, then we would have had to send our poop away as well I know we had to tell everybody, by the way we all might, by the way we all might have cysts. So let's hope bunsen's poop comes back negative it was a.
Speaker 2:It was an awful discussion.
Speaker 1:People annnalise and Adam were horrified.
Speaker 2:Annalise could not handle it she was like no horrified. She's like, oh no. And then you can also look for a diagnosis through microscopic analysis of the affected tissue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know how you can prevent this. Obviously, dogs are going to eat stuff when they're walking, even if they're on leash, and that's obviously what happened to Bunsen. He ate something and it just wasn't through incredible luck, he became the intermediate host. You can try, obviously, to keep your pets on deworming meds and don't feed your pets raw meat from livestock that could be infected with tape worms. But aside from that, as Dr Keyes said, they have no idea how Bunston got it. They have no idea how we could have prevented it. So it's just a mystery. It's a complete mystery.
Speaker 2:It is, but as a human, make sure you wash your hands thoroughly after handling animals or soil, as well as clean your fruits and vegetables before consuming them.
Speaker 1:That's right. You never know what's. Hitching a ride, little mouse, like eggs on the vegetables, and then you become the intermediate host.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's nightmare fuel as well.
Speaker 1:Everybody get all sisty up in here. Okay, sorry, hopefully we haven't horrified everybody. That's Pet Science and Science for this week. Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the Science Podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the Ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger the science cat has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too. Okay, on with the show.
Speaker 1:Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast. And I have the founder of Pet Piranha and author of Translating your Pet's Behavior A Mindful Approach to Dog Training, denise Monge. Denise, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. I'm so excited to be here and chatting with you here today, so thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Yay, we're excited to talk to you. And a quick question when are you in the world? Where are you calling into the show from?
Speaker 3:So right now I'm in Los Angeles, California.
Speaker 1:Los Angeles Tough life right.
Speaker 3:I live in central Alberta.
Speaker 1:Canada Tough life right. I live in central Alberta, Canada, so our summers are nice, but we do look south of us in our long winters with longing.
Speaker 3:I love my Canadian friends. I have a lot of Canadian clients and they are just lovely. So hello to Canada.
Speaker 1:Have you lived in the Los Angeles area most of your life or have you, like, ping ponged around the United States or the world?
Speaker 3:I've triangulated North and South America. I grew up in Brazil, moved to where I lived for about 13 years after college in Boston, and then made my way over to Los Angeles, where I've been for the past eight years or so.
Speaker 1:Wow, so were you? Did you born and like, how long did you live in Brazil? I'm just so curious.
Speaker 3:I lived in Brazil until I was 18. If you'll believe it, my mom's from Oklahoma and my dad's Brazilian, so I always tease that my sister and I are a hundred percent of the Brazilian Oklahoma population. I don't think it's a very common mix.
Speaker 1:My day job. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and our school has a close relationship with Sao Paulo in Brazil, so we do get kids from that region of Brazil nicest kids in the world.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's good to hear. We like it and it was a great experience growing up there although a little confusing to do carnival and then church camp in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1:Oh, I guess so A little bit of opposite ends of the spectrum.
Speaker 3:Exactly, culture shock.
Speaker 1:So let's talk a little bit about your book, translating your Pet's Behavior A Mindful Approach to Dog Training. I was wondering if we could just jump right into it. What inspired you to write this book?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So this book has truly been a labor of love. It's something I've been working on and finally published.
Speaker 3:After about eight years of writing it, and after working with thousands of clients and humans and their pets, I came up with this really beautiful philosophy, which is that mindful approach to pet training, and this book really bridges the gap between dog training and personal development. It's premised on the fact that our pets are one of the most honest relationships in our lives, so our energy is enmeshed and so, because of this enmeshment, they act as mirrors and through their behavior they act as mirrors and through their behavior they reflect back to us our mindsets, our motivations and our attitudes. So this book was designed to translate exactly what common pet behaviors are saying about pet parents, about us, about our life, our relationship, our friendships, our habits, even our careers. Because when we understand how our actions and beliefs are affecting our friendships, our habits, even our careers, because when we understand how our actions and beliefs are affecting our pets, we can create lasting change and powerful transformation, not only for our pets, but for ourselves as well. I like to think of this philosophy as self-help for pet's sake.
Speaker 1:I love that. We talk a lot on our social media, like people who follow us, the Bunsen and Beaker accounts, especially on Twitter or X Like we. We talk a lot about how pets help us with mindfulness, just being present, and that's what struck me about your book like having that in the title because that's a. It seems to be a big deal nowadays, but I think they're like as we go through in the next decade or so, I think there's going to be a big deal nowadays, but I think they're like as we go through in the next decade or so, I think there's going to be a lot of pretty good research that comes out that being mindful is really good for mental health.
Speaker 3:I could not agree more, and I think dog training in general has come a really long way in the past, even 10 years. Right, we went from that notion of hierarchy and dominance and you need to be, aggressive with your dog and impose yourself on your dog, and that's changed.
Speaker 3:Now we're more into positive reinforcement training where we're rewarding better behaviors or behaviors we don't love. We're redirecting and teaching them a better path forward and rewarding them. I think the pet industry in general has also come a long way ensuring that we're aware of the mental stimulation that our animals need right we have all these puzzle toys, we have sniffle hats, all of those things, but that's truly where it's plateaued.
Speaker 3:And this is where I think the next aspect of pet guardianship is coming in, which is acknowledging the energetic connection that we share with our animal companions, because when we have an approach that acknowledges the contributions and the roles of our animal companions in our lives, then we're no longer coming from a place of separation. Instead, we're looking at our pet's behavior rather than just naughty as nice or being frustrated when they quote, unquote misbehave. We're taking the approach where we're becoming conscious participants and we're understanding that their behaviors are a reflection of us, and that's the way forward. We've seen that trend in conscious parenting with human kids, so it's time that we translate this to our animal companions as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can, as you did, say I couldn't agree more with what you just said. We do a lot of we break down a lot of science research on our show and pet science research. And yeah, animals were not really think, thought of as thinking, carrying creatures with human-like emotions, and, as more and more research comes out, the dog brain and the human brain are the same in a lot of areas of structure and function.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah, and we can go more into it as we unfurl the conversation. We all share similar motivation and at the end of the day. If you want to create change in behavior, you need to understand the motivation behind that behavior and with pets being such intimate, honest relationships and mirrors of our own kind of fears and desires and wishes, our motivations are usually pretty aligned, which is cool.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait to get to it. So you write in the book about how our interactions with our pets can transform us. I was wondering if you could speak just a little bit about that. I know authors don't want to give away everything in the book, but I thought that's a cool section to chat about.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and so that is the premise of everything I do. And this is so important because all of us, as pet parents and pet guardians now, and even pet professionals or people working in the pet business we understand that our pets have that emotional and energetic connection with us, and to date there've been books about dog training and positive reinforcement, and then, on the other end of the spectrum, there's been more niche, conceptual books about the role that our animal companions play in our lives, the energy, the lessons they teach us all that amazing stuff. But until now no one's really brought those two together. And that's where I find the strongest transformation happens. For us as pet parents is in our everyday interactions. As we train with them, as we live with them, as we connect with them, we understand them more deeply as a lens through which to understand ourselves right.
Speaker 3:So if we accept the idea that our pets reflect our energy, we can draw parallels between their behaviors and patterns to our own lives.
Speaker 3:For instance, if our dog is displaying on leash reactivity or leash aggression, it's worth considering where we may also be experiencing similar patterns of lashing out due to our own feelings of insecurity and unsafety, and that might be not only when it comes to our pets, but in other relationships in our lives.
Speaker 3:When it comes to our pets, but in other relationships in our lives and romantic relationships in our careers, maybe with friends. If our animal companion has separation anxiety, that might prompt us to reflect on whether we're establishing proper boundaries in our lives or not, or how we perceive loss or ourselves in terms of broader relationships. If our animal companions have guest reactivity, barking at people coming in or really fearful of people coming into our home, that might lead us to question our own discernment and allowing others into our hearts and energetic space. So, basically, the way that our animal companions work with us is through common pet behaviors on leash reactivity, the barking, the nipping, chewing, digging, housebreaking, accidents, even moments of crisis where they're sick. We're able to translate what themes and topics are coming up through these interactions with our pets and apply them more broadly in our lives.
Speaker 1:As you said, if there's a lot of research that goes into our pets are our mirrors, then we are our mirror of our pets in some circumstances.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and so a lot of pet parents. They will say, yeah, I totally get that. My pet's behavior and energy is enmeshed in mine. When I come home, and I'm sad they act a certain way. When I come home, and I'm happy, they act a different way.
Speaker 3:There's even some studies out there that talk about why pets and humans tend to look alike. It's an energetic thumbprint that's coming through, so we understand that there's that reflection. Where we tend to trip up a little bit is understanding what it is they're reflecting. So if my dog is having on leash reactivity barking, lunging on leash or very fearful on leash with other dogs or bikes around I might be like, okay, they're reflecting something, but what are they reflecting? And this is where, after working with thousands of clients, not only with traditional training but also through animal communication, I've created a roadmap that maps out exactly what your pet is trying to tell you, what themes it's asking you to look at, what universal aspects of yourself and your life they should look at with the different behaviors. So with on-leash reactivity, it's all about understanding their motivation, and their motivation is very much rooted in needing to feel safe and secure.
Speaker 3:So the question is where are you dealing with themes of safety, security, grounding in your life? Are they're mirroring to you that you're not setting up loving boundaries? The themes they're asking you to work on in your life have more to do around. Where are you creating those boundaries around your needs versus other people's needs? Are you a people pleaser in relationships? Is there a little bit of codependency If your dog is barking at you for attention and jumping and nipping and trying to grab your attention at every turn? They're asking you to step into empowerment. Look at themes of empowerment in your life. Are there projects that you're holding back on? Are you shining as brightly as you need to? Are you making yourself small because you don't want to become a target With accidents, which is such a fun one?
Speaker 3:I know it's one of the most frustrating thing for pet parents, but in my experience, accidents have to do with themes around, illusion versus reality. Where did you want things to be a certain way but they turned out differently and you're disappointed? It has to do with where are you quote unquote pissed off in life? What red flags are you ignoring? What relationships do you not want to see for what they are because you just don't want to deal with it. So there's through their everyday behaviors, we're able to look back at different themes in our lives and learn more about ourselves.
Speaker 1:So the behaviors of your pets can give you an insight on things in your life that you might have to change to help out that relationship with your animal.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, because no longer are we coming from a place of separation, right? The dog training and even pet guardianship. It's not just about the dog or the pet, it's about the pet parent too. If we want to see shifts in our pet's behavior, we need to make sure that we're making changes in our lives as well. Right, it's not us versus them or like they need to change. We all need to make changes in our lives.
Speaker 3:And the way that I've couched this and rooted this is, if you'll believe it, going back to Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is all about Maslow helps us understand human motivation, what motivates each of us. And so in order to understand anyone, humans or animal companions alike we need to understand what motivates them. And Maslow did such a beautiful way, proposing a theory that human motivation is based on a hierarchy of needs. Right? So in his theory, he suggests and explains that we all aspire to self-actualization. That means being the best version of ourselves that we can be, but in order to reach that, we need to have our most basic needs met first. So the first thing we need to look at is our physiological needs, right, we need to have food, shelter, physical preservation, air, water. We need those to be met before we can move on the next set of needs, which is more around having resources, wellness, health. Then we move on to our emotional needs having love, having intimate relationships, having a family around us. Then we move into our esteem needs, which is when we feel confident we've accomplished things, we have heroes. Only then can we reach self-actualization, which is being the best version of who we can be. That's when we're writing our next big novel and putting ourselves out into the world and having more kind of big picture, esoteric questions. Bottom line of this philosophy is if I'm worried about where my next meal is, I'm not worried about writing the next novel. Right, yeah, and so, based on Maslow's pyramid or his hierarchy of needs, I translate that to our animal companions, right?
Speaker 3:I propose that we can use those same principles for our pets. Of course, our animal companions need to feel safe, secure and have the right nourishment, right. So we need to make sure they're physically okay. Then they need to ensure that they have that traditional training. So they need to feel safe, secure through open lines of communication with basic obedience commands, having those boundaries. Only then can they move on to those emotional and esteem needs where they feel loved, they feel confident because we've given them mental stimulation, we've used puzzle toys, we've given them jobs to do, and then I propose that they too aspire to self-actualization. They have roles that transcend just being a pet, and those roles entail helping us as humans along our path of personal development. So if we can understand where in those hierarchy of needs our pets are landing, it helps us understand how we can meet our own needs and motivations as well.
Speaker 1:That is such a it's such a interesting take. But I do see rooted in it and we didn't get into this in your intro. But like you're a certified dog trainer so you're not. You are, like you did say, within the Maslow's hierarchy of needs for your pet. You do need a structure of dog training and that is the basis before you get to move on, and I think that's so important. Good dog training is critical for a pet to know what their role is.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and we need. It's a three-pronged approach, right? Just, we used to do only like aerobics and now we're more into yoga. It's that same idea, right? We need to take care of the body, the mind and the spirit. And so working with our animal companions it's making sure physically they're okay, ensuring that we're doing the dog training, we have that foundational level of communication and trust with them, that they're getting the mental stimulation. And then we get to look at the energy behind everything. If we're looking to shift our pet's behaviors, we can't just look at the energy and we can't just look at the training. We really need to look at it all comprehensively and holistically in order to create big shifts.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's a similar conversation that folks had 10, 20 years ago, as we moved away from the dominance model, the pain and punishment model, to the more positive reinforcement model.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, no, I would agree, and I think one of the most beautiful aspects of this mindful approach to dog training, of this philosophy, is that in throughout this process, as we shift to becoming more conscious pet parents, as we are more mindful about what their behavior means at the end of the day, the transformation and shifts are not only in our pets behavior, it's in our everyday life, not only in our pet's behavior. It's in our everyday life. One of the best examples I can give of this is benevolent leadership. Our concept of benevolent leadership has changed so much, and it's also changes from person to person. It's something very individual.
Speaker 3:A lot of pet parents I work with are women, and so the challenge is, if they have a dog, that might be a bit more rambunctious. What they've been taught or they've read about is trying to be loud, assertive, aggressive, right. They're trying to take very masculine traits towards their dogs and apply them. However, that's not authentic to them. So what happens in that scenario? They're almost like wearing a mask right, or a costume, or like playing a role, and our animal companions read our energy.
Speaker 3:So if we don't have energetic cohesion in that, if our words, body language and energy don't match, they're always going to read the energetic message, because energy never lies. So even if I'm standing tall and I have my dog on leash and they're barking and lunging and I'm like it's okay, all is well, stop stop. Our animal companion doesn't matter what we're saying. They're like no, her energy is frenetic. So our animal companions help us find our own authentic leadership style. They help us understand how we can embody calm, how we can embody stability, where we can embody stability, where we feel most empowered. What tone of voice, what range of voice? Sometimes it's a whisper, but they teach us to match our energy with our words and our body language, and that energetic cohesion is a lesson that translates across everything. When you step into a board meeting, if you don't have energetic cohesion, people are going to pick up on that.
Speaker 1:If you're a three-year-old, I feel that, as a teacher Exactly, I've been at the game long enough. I have student teachers now, and in high school it's different than other age groups. But I said, high school kids can sniff out a teacher that doesn't know what they're talking about and doesn't care about you. They can tell in the first 10 minutes of you opening your mouth. So you got to know what you're talking about and you got to care about them.
Speaker 3:I love that, which is probably makes you such a memorable and wonderful teacher for so many kids, and that's where our animal companions are our teachers. At the end of the day, everything we're learning through our training with them is truly just a dress rehearsal to apply in our relationships, career and beyond.
Speaker 1:So it's not so much say what you mean and mean what you say, but say it the way that you are like. Say it with your authentic self, Don't try to fake it.
Speaker 3:Don't try to fake it. And the other aspect of that, the other principle that I use a lot with my pet parents, is that reminder to be the energy you want to see Right, I can tell my dog to be cool and calm and collected, but unless I am, unless I'm mirroring that for them I'm modeling that behavior for them they're not going to pick up on it right. So we need to be what we need them, what we're asking of them. We need to walk that walk first, so they can follow in our footsteps.
Speaker 1:And I think that's where the whole holistic aspect of mindfulness comes in. Right, Everybody is calm and cool and they are sorry. Everybody gets to be that state of calm and cool in a different way. You have to find that for yourself. If you're a stressed out, high strung person, you brought up yoga. Maybe it's exercise, maybe it's deep breathing, maybe it's meditation, Maybe it's watching a bad show on Netflix, who knows? But everybody's going to get there a different way. Yeah, and like we have exceptional dog trainers that we've taken our dogs to and that that's something that they've said is that dog can say the dog can tell when you're not confident, the dog can tell when you are panicking.
Speaker 3:And confidence, to your point, looks so different from people to people. Not only are we having to learn how to manage our own energy, our expectations, our mental chatter, like all those things our pets pick up on, but beyond that, we get to use our intuitive muscles to understand, from pet to pet, how that's different. Right, because I'm sure you mentioned you have three dogs. I'm sure one dog reacts very differently than another dog. So we get to learn to read a room right, read our pets, and that also coming from the advertising world. Oh my gosh, if you can't walk into a meeting and read the room, you're sunk. It's such valuable life skills that our animal companions teach us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they all act a little differently. Yeah, bernoulli, our puppy. He is a mixture of our two older dogs, which is cool. He's got the stoicness of our older Bernice Mountain Dog and the effervescent friendliness of our Golden, so he's just this unique creature that he's got both going on.
Speaker 3:How beautiful, and isn't that just so wonderful, right? They all have such unique little personalities and they all teach us different things. And the other thing as a pet parent you might have noticed is that our pets are not one trick ponies, right. Your pet might play one role in your life and act a certain way with you, versus with someone else in your family your wife, kids, whoever a partner they might act completely differently, right. So they're really good at also reading what each of us needs within the pack and managing their behavior accordingly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is 100% sure. For our older burner Bunsen he is like a hero dog. He will protect everybody in the family with his life, except for me he does. If I get stuck in a snowbank he's like whatever that guy can, he can deal with it. But if anybody else has a trouble he's like hold on call 911, rescue time rescue activated.
Speaker 3:I love that. That's adorable. Oh my gosh, so funny.
Speaker 1:Are there some questions that you can ask yourself or maybe you can pose to us, that can help bring balance and expansion in your life with your pet? You do write about it in the book.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. In the book, I encourage you to always be the own expert in your relationship with your animal companions. Even though I provide a lot of information around what each pet behavior you know unleashed barking, separation, anxiety, housebreaking, accidents there's a lot of detail and jumping off points as to what your pet is saying about you through those behaviors. I still want to empower each pet parent to be the expert in their own relationship and there's four questions that you can ask yourself that can help you get deeper in on any dynamic with your pet. So if you're thinking of a behavior that your pet may be presenting, it could be something frustrating barking or having accidents or it could be something you really enjoy waking you up with morning licks Think of something your pet does and just hold that in your mind. And as you do, you want to ask yourself four questions. The first is what emotions come up for you when you're tapping into this experience, and you just feel into that and see what comes up. The next question you want to ask yourself is where else in your life do you experience similar emotions? Does it trigger memories or past experiences or other situations in your life? And you don't have to overthink it. It's the first thing that comes with you, kind of stick with it.
Speaker 3:The third question you ask is, when you think of that parallel, what belief or mindset or habit is at the core of that right? And once you've identified that, you ask yourself are you ready to change the story? And if so, what's a new habit or mindset or behavior that could lead to a better outcome? So if I were to walk through this myself, if I'm thinking of my dog barking, for example, an emotion that could come up for me when tapping into the frustration of my dog barking might be like it's frustration. I feel like a tightness in my throat. I feel just really like a jittery on edge. Where else in my life do I experience that similar emotion? Honestly, it might remind me of being at work and at a meeting and I say something and then it happens every so often that then somebody next to you says the exact same thing and everyone's like oh yeah, that's wonderful. Why did we not think of that?
Speaker 1:And you're like.
Speaker 3:I just said that, right? So the belief or mindset that comes up from that is this notion that I'm never heard. I don't feel heard. Nobody ever hears me, and if I'm ready to change that story, I might remind myself when that energy comes up or when my dog's barking. I'm gonna change that story to. My voice is powerful and reaches those ready to hear me.
Speaker 1:That's a great exercise.
Speaker 3:It helps you just get back into understanding what your pet's bringing up for you, because their behavior is always eliciting something deeper in you. Right, if there's an emotional response, it's because there's an unmet need or there's something that's going on in your life that you're not completely thrilled with. On the flip side we talked about, think of a presenting issue with your pet that's frustrating, or one you love. If you're thinking about something you love and you're feeling it in your body, you're feeling really light and the belief that comes through is I can do anything I put my mind to and I don't have to change that. But I could definitely parlay that and apply it to other areas of my life where I am feeling a bit more restricted or constricted in outcomes. So we can use this mindful examination, whether it's for something that's frustrating for us or something that's really working well for us and benefiting us in our lives.
Speaker 1:Great, it's almost like life advice.
Speaker 3:I hear that a lot. I hear a lot from my clients like Denise, you're like my dog trainer, but you're also my life coach, and I think of our animal companions as being that. They truly are furry little life coaches. A lot of us on this path of personal development think about oh, who are my guides? Or who are the gurus? I should be listening to Spoiler alert. They're adorable and they're probably right next to you doing something really silly, but they're deep and they have that Yoda quality.
Speaker 1:That is a. That's a post on Instagram with your dog and the caption is my dog is my life coach, or something like that. But I think what our conversation is. It's bringing to light why that is right. It's the meaning behind. Maybe that flip it Pinterest tagline.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's all about understanding shared motivation and the emotional overlay of the story. Right, Because when it comes to the theme of on-leash reactivity and a need to feel more safe, for example, that theme of safety can show up as many different narratives for different people. For me, safety might be more about financial safety. For someone else it might be about being able to have choice and control in situations. So it's interesting because in my work with animal companions, I've learned so much about the human condition and all the stories we have out there. It's why Hollywood is so big. Right, Our universal themes are limited, but the way the story's told is boundless limited, but the way the story's told is boundless.
Speaker 1:And you do write in the book about how exploring this bond lets you perhaps see the world in a different light.
Speaker 3:Exactly. It helps inform our worldview, our mindsets, and it just keeps us honest, right? Because if I'm working with on-leash reactivity and I've, you know, gotten to a point where, okay, I feel safe, I feel grounded, I feel stable, I'm modeling, I'm exuding that for my animal companion they're doing great on leash If I have a little bit of a slip or something goes on in my life and my dog goes back to being reactive on leash, it's a very good litmus test for me to be like okay, let me go back to that theme. Something shifted there for us.
Speaker 1:Now I do have to give you a shout out because, like I, I haven't had time to go through the book. I got it this morning and I've read a few chapters. There are some it's not necessarily I don't want to say that the philosophy, but there are like there's training, there's like really good training tips in here. It's not just the philosophy of mindfulness with your pet.
Speaker 3:And that was so important to me, because there are dog training books and there's a lot of kind of esoteric pets rules that they play in your life out there, but no one's combining the two and as we were talking about with that mind, body, spirit, mind, body, energy.
Speaker 1:we can't keep those separate anymore. We need to bring it all together. So it goes through step by step about how to do down, because that's where we are with Bernoulli, right, so he's just our little guy, so we're working on. He's great with sit, his recall is great, but down, stay and sit, stay. That's where we're at. For people that are hearing our conversation, you're like, oh, that's interesting, but maybe I'd like a resource that goes through some pet training tips. This has it just for to alleviate fears of folks that are listening.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. It's got everything you need to raise a puppy from coming home to all of its days with you. Or if you have a longtime companion and you're looking to brush up on some things and have some activities to do together, we have that as well, so it's really meant to be an all-encompassing resource on living with, training and connecting with your pets in new, amazing ways.
Speaker 1:There is not a chapter on stopping your Bernice Mountain Dog from bringing back moose legs. Oh gosh See that's not an LA problem, that's a Canada thing. I've yet to find a book that gives me advice on that. No, it's an in-joke with Bunce. He found 11 moose legs one winter. It was ridiculous.
Speaker 3:Like moose, legs Like the animal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the actual animal. That's about three moose. Oh my God, that's insane. It was awful. It went viral. It was a whole thing on the internet, like three or four years ago, whoa.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, that's insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was awful, it was the worst.
Speaker 3:No, thank you, little one. Yeah, we got to have a conversation. That's where the animal communication comes in. We use our animal communication to have those, those talks with our pets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the first time it was like horrifying, but by the fifth or sixth one we just laughed oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then everybody was waiting, so did you allow him to keep like chew on that?
Speaker 1:No, because who knows like how long. I? Yeah, like it's not super safe, I think, for animals, probably to just eat random stuff they find in the bush. Yeah, so the the funniest one, you'll get a kick out of this.
Speaker 1:He, during the winter we have like lots of snow and he, while I was out snowshoeing he found he had been digging at this one spot week after week for like weeks and he dug a giant hole. So he would dig and Bunsen, we got to go and he'd go, so he listens. And then he dug down just enough. It was like the tip of a moose leg. I was like, oh God, there was a moose leg under there and it was like the sword in the stone from Disney, where the moose leg was like in the ice block and Bunsen wasn't worthy and every day he would work at it for a minute or two as we passed it while snowshoeing and get it a little bit more loose, and it was heading towards spring and it would get a little bit more melty and then finally it came free and Bunsen was worthy and he got his.
Speaker 1:I think that was moose leg 10. I don I don't know.
Speaker 3:Amazing, and what a lesson for us about perseverance, right oh, yeah, he the perseverance.
Speaker 1:And then he was a good boy because he didn't just stay there the whole winter digging like he came every time I asked.
Speaker 3:So that's amazing. There's definitely some symbolism there, for sure.
Speaker 1:Denise, thank you for talking to us about your book. Where can people find it if they're like?
Speaker 3:I'd like to pick this book up. Yeah, it's on Amazon, available as paperback and also as ebook, or you can also go to petpranacom, which is my website, and you can find it on there as well with other resources.
Speaker 1:Perfect, and as long as you're not driving people, the links will be in our show notes. Or maybe you're a passenger, that's fine. Don't be the driver clicking on things. We have a couple standard guests, sorry. We have a couple standard questions we ask all our guests about. One is a pet story and since we've been talking about dogs, I was wondering if you could share a pet story from your life, denise.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just share. The most ironic part of being a dog trainer and a pet expert is I actually never had a dog of my own. I grew up in São Paulo, brazil, so we were an apartment building, so it wasn't really conducive for pets any traditional pets, that is. I had caterpillars, I had some turtles at one point, but it wasn't until a couple months before I left for college that we got our first puppy and upon studying dog training, I realized we did absolutely everything wrong with that dog.
Speaker 1:Like her first golden.
Speaker 3:Right, the poor first pet. Right, they always get all the bad habits, but it was really helpful in that when I did step into dog training, I really had to learn everything from the ground up. I wasn't one of those people who's I've had pets all my life. I know how to do all of this. I really got to learn which put me in the shoes of first-time pet parents that I train with.
Speaker 1:Do you feel you did a better job the second time around?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, now I have hundreds of dogs that will vouch for me and pet parents. I feel okay about life now, but it was funny. As I was studying dog training, I was like, wow, we did everything wrong. When we came home, we made a huge party about it. The poor dog had separation, anxiety, on-leash reactivity, and now I understand why. So talk about a wonderful little teacher to give me a unique perspective.
Speaker 1:Do you have any current dogs, Denise, like living with you right now?
Speaker 3:I still don't if you'll believe it, because I'm out training so many dogs that, if I did, they'd be at daycare all day. But I have the benefit of my sister has a dog who spends a lot of time with me, so I get all the benefits of being an aunt without any of the responsibility of being a parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like having a dog in your family, that it's a chunk of your life, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's wonderful.
Speaker 1:It's a great experience. Your first dog. What was its name?
Speaker 3:So he was a little mini schnauzer named Paco. Oh yeah, very he looked like a toy, like a little stuffed animal his entire life.
Speaker 1:But he was. He was not the social butterfly we hoped he'd be. Little kids would clock toward him and he'd growl and get upset, and so it was funny. He had this really cute outer exterior and little, challenging, sassy personality. I love it. Thanks for sharing a pet story from your life. Yeah, as we wrap up, I challenge every one of our guests to leave us with a super fact, something that you know, that when you tell people, it blows their mind a bit.
Speaker 3:I was wondering if you could share a super fact with us. Absolutely. We have the classics. You miss a hundred percent of the dogs that you don't pet in a cuddle a day.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 3:Those are important to mention, but a super fact that most of my pet parents it blows them away when they hear it is. For our animal companions, eye contact equals love, right? So when they are sitting there just staring at you, that's their way of saying I love you. And then in our relationship with our animal companions, if I'm training, I'm trying to get my dog to stop barking, for example a lot of times as humans, if our pet is doing something we don't love, we burn a hole and we look at them really intently. We tell them to stop barking.
Speaker 3:Come on, what are you doing really intently? We tell them to stop barking, come on, what are you doing? So when we give them eye contact, in that moment we're basically saying approval yes, keep doing that, I love you. So when we're working with our animal companions and we want to shift a behavior we don't love, don't forget to remove eye contact, because that's a signal that we're not loving the behavior that they're performing in this moment. And then we can always redirect them and reward them for better choices. But watch your eye contact Interesting.
Speaker 1:I love that it's been four years since we had a puppy. That was when Beaker was little and Bernoulli his little eyes, oh man, just stare into your soul like nothing.
Speaker 3:When we get those little eyes looking at us and you have three pairs of eyes, which just must be the cutest thing ever. So they bring so much joy to our lives, right? It's incredible that not only do they bring that joy, but they teach us so much along the way.
Speaker 1:it's incredible that not only do they bring that joy, but they teach us so much along the way, and usually those eyes are looking at me when I'm having an apple too close to them, wow.
Speaker 3:Apples are good for dogs. They can have a little bit.
Speaker 1:You betcha? Oh yeah, I am. I'm terrible. I give them a piece of my apple. That's why they come by, and Bernoulli's learned that.
Speaker 3:So I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for your super fact, denise. Are you on social media? Can people connect or follow you if you're on the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the TikToks or the Twitters or wherever?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. They can find me on social media, as at Pet Prana Also, I send out weekly newsletters with tips, information, resources, and they can sign up for my newsletter on Pet Pranacom as well.
Speaker 1:There you are, pet Prana. Okay, so the Bunsen and Beaker Instagram account just followed you.
Speaker 3:Awesome.
Speaker 1:Great, denise, this has been so fun talking to you and I do have to say it's a growing area of research mindfulness with humans. I think it's cool that we're having your perspective with mindfulness with dogs and I just so appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you for including me and for the work you do and the joy you bring around science and pets. As somebody who failed a lot of science and chemistry classes, I think I would have done better had you been my teacher.
Speaker 1:A lot of people say that on social media. But I don't know. I still mark hard, so you never know. That's what I say.
Speaker 3:But thank you for bringing the two together and for engaging in these interesting conversations about pets. I think the more we get to talk about them, the more we realize the role they play and the more we understand what they bring to the table, because they truly are incredible and an incredible reflection of us, which means humanity is incredible too. Right, it's about loving the humans, the pets and just learning together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I can't finish it better than you, Denise. Thank you so much for being our guest today and best wishes in the future.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Same to you.
Speaker 1:That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the Science Podcast. Special thanks to our guests this week and also a shout out to the top tiers of our paid community, the Pop Hack Plus. If you want to hear your name, sign up in the show notes to support. If you want to hear your name and support the Science Podcast, sign up in the show notes. It's a great way to keep the Science Podcast free. Okay, Chris, let's hear those names.
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