The Science Pawdcast

Season 6 Episode 18, Sleep, Bird Flu in Cats, and Cutting-Edge Canine Orthopedic Care

• Jason Zackowski • Season 6 • Episode 18

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Ever wondered how sleep deprivation sabotages your memory just when you need it the most?

Discover crucial insights from two groundbreaking University of Michigan studies on how our brains replay and solidify memories during sleep, and why missing out on rest can have lasting effects on memory retention.

This episode sheds light on why adequate sleep is non-negotiable, especially during exam season.

Have you noticed your outdoor cat showing signs of stiffness or wobbliness? We bring to light bird flu in cats and what you need to know to protect your feline friends. Learn about the symptoms, preventive measures, and the importance of hygiene to keep your pets safe from this growing threat. Your cat’s health could hinge on the knowledge you gain from this discussion.

Lastly, join us for an inspiring chat with Emily and Phil from Wimba, a trailblazing company in canine orthopedic care. Hear their journey from different fields into veterinary medicine and discover how they use 3D-printing technology to create life-changing prosthetics and orthotics for dogs. From advanced scanning methods to heartwarming pet stories, this segment is packed with innovation and compassion that every pet lover will find fascinating.

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Speaker 2:

Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zukoski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there. I'll mention it in the family section, but I'm very lucky to be healthy today. On Father's Day, I was in a car accident. I got rear-ended from behind, a few cuts and scrapes and bruises and some definitely soreness. That's still today. So I was very lucky, and even more lucky was Beaker was in the car with me. She's okay as well. Let's talk about what's on the show In science news.

Speaker 2:

A study about sleep deprivation and memory is kind of topical because for Chris and I it's the end of the year and students are writing exams and maybe not getting as much sleep as they should. So what did that study say? We'll check it out. In pet science we're going to look at the avian flu which is in parts of North America, at the avian flu which is in parts of North America, maybe spreading, maybe getting kind of spooky. How does it affect your pets, like cats that may predate on birds? Hmm, in Ask an Expert.

Speaker 2:

We're going to be talking to two people from Wimba, a veterinary doctor and the business manager. What is Wimba? Oh well, you'll have to listen to find out. Okay, the bad joke. Now, these come courtesy of my nephew. What do you give a sick bird who has the bird flu? Well, you give them a tweetment. Okay, on with the show, because there's no time like Science Time. This week in Science News, chris and I are going to be talking about sleep deprivation and memory retention motivation and memory retention. This is pretty topical because both you and I, when people are listening to this, will be still in final exams for the year of school.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. It hits home for me too, because when I was teaching from home, I stayed up all night to create lessons and I really impacted my memory, that's for sure.

Speaker 2:

I don't think it's any surprise that the less sleep you have, it makes it harder and harder to remember information, and we see it with kids who are super tired, like super groggy. They generally don't do as well on tests and kids will admit that They'll be like I didn't get a lot of good sleep last night. I didn't sleep at all. That was not a good day for me when they might have had a one-off poor test score.

Speaker 3:

And sometimes they just spend the night cramming as opposed to studying a little bit each night for a week.

Speaker 2:

So we're going to be looking at two studies, both from the University of Michigan, which explore the impact of sleep and sleep deprivation on memory formation. Now I have to give a caveat that these studies did not use people. They used rats, For example, rats were placed in a maze and they will have neurons that will light up when the animal reaches specific spots in the maze. Those neurons are called place neurons. We have them as humans and they help us navigate the environment.

Speaker 3:

So what happens to these neurons during sleep? Will they light up as a rat thinks about the maze that it just did? So the faster it does the maze, the more reward it gets. So it's important to know the layout of the maze so the rats are in it to win it.

Speaker 2:

All right. So these place neurons are tuned to specific stimuli and they found that it was locations in a maze that the rats were in During sleep. A type of electrical activity called sharp wave ripples emanates from the hippocampus. They happen every few seconds during restful states and sleep.

Speaker 3:

And so what happens when you're sleeping? Your brain is replaying and reactivating the memories of the day and reactivating the memories of the day, and this study supports the theory that reactivation of neurons during sleep is crucial for memory.

Speaker 2:

Now you might notice we haven't talked about sleep deprivation. That's coming in the second study. This first one was just as you mentioned, chris. It was just nailing down that the brain, while it's asleep, fires to help replay the day and help with memory for the next.

Speaker 3:

So the next study was the sleep deprivation study and it compared neuron reactivation and sequence replay during sleep versus sleep deprivation. And they found some interesting things. Sleep deprivation and they found some interesting things. They found that there was more neuron reactivation and replay during sleep compared to when there was sleep deprivation. They also found that sleep deprivation had a similar or higher rate of those sharp wave ripples, but with a lower amplitude and power. So that's interesting and we'll explain that in a few minutes. They also found that the reactivation of the maze experience during sharp wave ripples was often suppressed during sleep deprivation. That's interesting because we just talked about how that reactivation phase happens during sleep, and so when you're deprived of sleep, the reactivation is suppressed. More interestingly, the sleep-deprived rats' reactivation and replay did not fully recover, even after catching up on sleep. So sometimes you think, oh, I'll just catch up, I'm just going to be awake, awake, awake and I'll just catch up. But they found that there was not a real full recovery. So what does this mean?

Speaker 2:

The conclusion is they found big differences between rats that had lots of sleep and rats that were sleep deprived. Reactivation and replay are vital for memory formation. That was actually shown in previous studies not related to this one, but also in the one before this. Sleep deprivation has detrimental effects on memory. It affects your memory, reactivation and replay. Not only are you not replaying the day's events in your brain, which leads you to remember things, there's less activation of it, so it's just a double whammy. So, if any of our students are listening, or for those of you who are studying in the future, the conclusion mimics what a lot of other conclusions have said about a good night's rest and that it's a lot better to cut your losses early, meaning that if you have to study lots, it's better to stop studying and get some sleep or even a good night's rest, rather than trying to cram all night. Your brain's not going to fire to make long-term memory and if it does, it's not going to fire as strong because you're so tired.

Speaker 3:

I'm so tired, with Bernoulli being awake very early in the morning being awake very early in the morning.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a completely other study. It's called like maybe have you heard of mummy brain before.

Speaker 3:

Like new mums are just in a fog from not getting enough sleep. Yes, is that what I have? I'm a puppy mummy that is not able to sleep. You have a puppy mummy brain. That's what I have.

Speaker 2:

That's a good thing we're not studying for big tests.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and then I've completed my master's already. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's science news for this week. This week in pet science we're going to talk about cats and the bird flu. Have you been hearing a little bit about the bird flu that's circulating around, chris?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely the H5N1, avian influenza. Yeah, I know, I have heard of that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, was it. Last summer Gord was worried about the chickens Because his chickens could get it from songbirds that land nearby.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and if you had it in your flock they took out the whole flock yeah, the entire flock was culled, for sure for sure, yeah, so it was something that he was very concerned about I know there was a famous.

Speaker 2:

It went viral. It was emmanuel. Did you ever see emmanuel the emu? It was like emmanuel don't. It was the this lady and her emu and he would hit the camera. Yeah, their whole farm got the bird flu and I think they had to call a bunch of birds and I think Emanuel got really sick.

Speaker 3:

He did get very sick.

Speaker 2:

yes, so people probably heard about the bird flu, but what does this have to do with cats, Chris?

Speaker 3:

The main concern is that cats are contracting and dying from bird flu, which raises concerns about the risk to both felines and their owners.

Speaker 2:

How are cats getting bird flu, though? Like I don't understand that.

Speaker 3:

They're catching and possibly eating wild birds. They could consume raw meat diets, particularly raw poultry. They could be drinking raw milk which has not been pasteurized, or they might be drinking contaminated water or touching contaminated footwear or equipment that has been contaminated with the bird flu.

Speaker 2:

These are the cats that are outside cats right. We've talked before about how dangerous it is for you to let your cat go outside unattended. Those are the cats that are outside cats right. We've talked before about how dangerous it is for you to let your cat go outside unattended. Those are the cats that are probably catching the birds, though I'd imagine if Ginger was in her catio and a bird got too close, that would be the end of that bird.

Speaker 3:

It definitely was the end of one mouse life. It ran in there and it did not run out.

Speaker 2:

No, why would it go? It had everywhere it could possibly go and it went into the thing with the super predator.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that was not a wise choice. So there is some evidence that suggests that cats may transmit the virus to each other.

Speaker 2:

One is sick and it gives it to another. Is this? How many cats have got it and how many cats have died? Is this super, concerning or just fairly rare?

Speaker 3:

The bird flu does have an impact on cats and most recently in 2024, over 16 cats in the United States contracted H5N1, with at least four deaths. So four in 16, but previous years also saw infections and deaths among cats, which includes domestic and wild cats like mountain lions and bobcats.

Speaker 2:

I'd heard that some of the wild cats got it, so if they do contract it the mortality is pretty high, at least based on testing right. There could be a whole bunch of like random cats that got it and nobody knows, because they could be feral or outside cats. Something to keep an eye on. And if your cat does contract bird flu, some of the symptoms that they have are fairly stiff movement, they get wobbly, they have a runny nose and they actually start to lose their eyesight. Are there any risks to us, chris?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, possible but likely. Low Instances of people contracting bird flu from pets or farm animals have been rare. So an example would be a vet in New York City got sick from the bird flu after working with infected cats, and some farm workers in Texas and Michigan developed mild infections after contact with infected dairy cows.

Speaker 2:

The worry is all the worries that some of the epidemiologists I have listened to is like the bird flu can make us sick, like not great, but it can, and the the the worry is that if it's all around us it just takes a little mutation for it to jump to humans and then we've got a whole nother COVID situation all over again. You also have to be. You also have to watch out for your mammals, the other mammal pets, because dogs, ferrets, mink and little gerbils and things like that could potentially get bird flu. What are the easiest ways to avoid it?

Speaker 3:

Keep your cat inside, so limit their exposure to birds and the bird droppings, avoiding those raw diets, avoiding feeding raw poultry or raw milk. And you need to maybe disinfect your shoes and surfaces and keep bird feeders away from areas accessible to cats. I make a joke it's a bird feeder, cat feeder, like if you put out your bird feeder and you let your cats outside, then the birds come to the bird feeder and then it's a cat feeder. So maybe watch where you put those and monitor your cat. So watch for those symptoms that you mentioned If cats bring home dead birds, and please notify your vet and authorities as needed.

Speaker 2:

If your cat starts to get worrying symptoms, get them to the vet right away.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, if they're wobbly or stiff or have a runny nose. And blindness was another concern right.

Speaker 2:

So this is just on on the radar. It's the news bulletin has been making the rounds that cats can get bird flu and cats do like to predate on birds. I guess the first thing, I guess the biggest lesson, is, if you're just letting your cat out willy nilly, think about avoiding that. That's probably the easiest way to keep your cat safe. All right, that's pet news for this week.

Speaker 2:

Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the science podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our paw pack plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the ginger stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the Ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger the science cat has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too Okay, on with the show.

Speaker 2:

Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have two amazing guests that are going to be talking about something called Wimba. I have Phil Basson and Dr Emily Hall with me today. How are you both doing, phil and Emily?

Speaker 4:

Jason, thanks for having us on. We're excited to speak with you guys today.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, we're really excited to be here.

Speaker 2:

So, first off, where are you calling into the show from Emily? Where are you in the world?

Speaker 6:

So I'm actually in Tulsa Oklahoma.

Speaker 2:

And yourself, Phil.

Speaker 4:

I am based in Denver, colorado, up in the mountains oh nice, okay, okay, perfect.

Speaker 2:

One of the things we're just going to do real quick and I'll cut this part is just I mentioned this is, get a handle of both of who you are before we get into the Wimba stuff. Dr Hall, what's your training as a veterinarian?

Speaker 6:

Yeah, and definitely feel free to just call me Emily. So I'm actually with my patients and my pet parents. I just go by Dr Emily. So I started my journey. It's a lot to be a veterinarian.

Speaker 6:

As I'm sure you've heard, I did my prerequisites in undergrad at Oklahoma State University. I actually went a year early by finishing those and went straight into Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine and then did my clinical year at University of Illinois Vet School. All just great experiences. Each place has a wonderful different thing to learn there.

Speaker 6:

From there I worked in general practice with dogs and cats, while also obtaining a lot of different extra different things, learning with exotics. I then ended up working at Coral World Ocean Park for a brief time oh neat, yeah and then ended up coming back to be home in Oklahoma, got back into general practice doing relief work and really, as we'll talk about with Kalina, a lot of things changed when I came back and part of that was a huge shift in deciding to learn about rehab and canine rehabilitation therapy, and that's where my passion's been since. I also do some extra trainings in behavior as another passion and they actually really go together hand in hand very well. So now I actually have my own canine rehabilitation business where I mobily go around the Tulsa and surrounding areas and help dogs with canine rehabilitation therapy.

Speaker 2:

Now, emily, is your origin story, similar to some of the other vets I've talked to, where, as a young Emily, you wanted to be a vet from the moment you could think about a job.

Speaker 6:

Oh, I wish I could say yes.

Speaker 2:

Oh, so you have a unique origin story.

Speaker 6:

I'm going to try to make it as least complicated as possible, because it really is more of yes, I've always loved animals 100%, just definitely passionate about learning as much as I could about every single animal I could find out about.

Speaker 6:

I wanted to be a marine biologist for a large period of time, I would say that, even though I went back and forth even after this one moment. But when it really comes down to a moment that I could pinpoint, it was in my kind of, I would say, like older childhood, when you start picking up on some things in the world, right. And so we had a family dog and there was a moment where we were going to have to say goodbye and it wasn't as beautiful as you would think a situation. So I'm going to go past that, but I promised her in that moment, actually, that I was going to be a veterinary and so I could understand in the future what's going on for dogs like her and be a voice for them, because I didn't feel like she was getting the voice. Even though I didn't understand what was going on, I knew that I wanted to be a voice for dogs like her in the future.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I've got tears in my eyes. Oh, my God future, oh, I've got tears in my eyes.

Speaker 6:

Oh, my God, I'm thankful to be able to say I feel like I. I did, I'm succeeding in that, and I think of her every day.

Speaker 2:

That's very sweet. Thanks, emily. Now, phil, you're not a vet yourself, you're on the business side of Wimba and we're going to be talking about that right away. What do you, what would you? Sorry, let me start again. What did you do before this whole dog rehab, rehabilitation thing?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, thanks, jason. I'm not going to try to one up Emily, because her story is certainly passionate and unique. We're so glad that she is on our Wimba team, but my origin story, or my background, is actually on the human med tech space. Before I moved into my position with Wimba, I worked as a medical device representative, sales representative in sports medicine, and then moved into the marketing side on spine surgery, helping with marketing and product development for a lot of the pediatric and adult spinal systems that are used globally.

Speaker 4:

And it's actually interesting when I see injuries on the animal side and how they are being surgically repaired and how they're being or, sorry, how they're being corrected from a surgical standpoint and how that compares to the human side. I find that stuff all extremely interesting. I've had two dogs and now I have one dog, a golden retriever, so it's pretty cool that I got to bring him around and use him in the demos and stuff. So that's been a lot of fun, but it's something that I've always been passionate about. I think I'm just thankful that I was able to make the transition to the animal side of medical device.

Speaker 2:

Okay, okay, okay. So we got a good picture of what you both do, so let's get right into it. Can we talk about Wimba? It's amazing. I was poking around. Of course, I did my background of poking around the website In your own words. Maybe we'll start with Phil and then we'll go to Emily. What is Wimba, phil?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so Wimba is a idea that was actually founded by our two founders, greg and Fronic Koch, who are based in Poland, and Wimba itself has started as a Polish startup. Emily and myself run the US side of the business and operations, but everything is, and all the technologies were developed and are still based in Poland. But at its core, what we're trying to do is we're trying to revolutionize, we're trying to set the standard for canine orthopedic issues, and right now it is specifically around rehab and orthotics and prosthetics, which for the audience are braces and tripod type dogs, where they're artificial limbs. So that is the layman terms for that. But what was being done in the veterinary space for that was almost, or is almost, an art. The traditional way of doing that is taking a fiberglass or plaster casting of the animal, the same way they do with humans, and then taking that and either hand scanning that into a 3D image and then fabricating a prosthetic leg for an animal or a brace out of the same a lot of the same materials that are used on the human side, which is a very art-like process. Wimba has taken a modern approach to that. Our actual acquisition of the limb itself is done via a smartphone and you take a normal video that you would, same way you would be taking a video of your dogs playing. But we use some unique features on the backside to identify that limb in space and, based off that limb, we put that into a CAD file, which is an engineering file on a computer, and we have an algorithm that is helping build orthosis or a prosthesis to that limb on the computer, from which we 3D print it.

Speaker 4:

We utilize Hewlett Packard's multi-jet fusion printers, which use a unique material called PA11 and PA12. It's a nylon-based material, which makes it extremely durable and strong, but also very light. Our entire device is 3D printed and then it is shipped to the animal and, based on the features of the orthosis or prosthesis, we have straps that allow for an adjustment, as well as some pretty cool honeycomb structure padding that allows the orthosis to compress to the animal's limb, because we know that sometimes the animal's limb will change volumes between the time that we have scanned it and the time it actually gets them. And then from there they're off and running. The devices themselves are extremely light they're almost four times lighter than the traditional methods and they're completely waterproof. So they can do rehab with the devices.

Speaker 4:

And then one thing that's extremely unique to Wimba is we have a therapy system. So if you think of human medical devices and specifically braces, when you get after surgery or after an injury you may not have the full mobility or the full range of motion. And we actually have a feature on our devices that allows you to dial in, based on the health of the animal, how much range of motion you'd like to allow. So if the animal is just coming out of surgery and they're still pretty weak, we can limit the range of motion to protect the animal's limb but also protect that surgical site from being injured. And then, as their health hopefully increases and they're doing rehab, we can allow an introduced range of motion that coincides with that rehab protocol.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I've got so many follow-up questions. That rehab protocol Okay, I've got so many follow-up questions. This is amazing, but I do want to bring Emily into the conversation. On the pet health side, what are some of the injuries or surgeries that this is used for? What have you seen in your practice or what would you be able to?

Speaker 6:

explain to us about that, Emily? Yeah, absolutely, We'll talk a little bit about again Kalina will come up my kiddo with carpal hyperextension. We've got tarsal injuries, whether it be support just because of arthritis or whether it's something like an Achilles tendon injury. And then of course, we've got the stifle that's come out. That is for cruciate injuries. We're not saying if you can do a TPLO, we're still agreeing that's the gold standard, but we know that, at least in a lot of areas, that's not a possibility for everyone, and so there's been a huge gap, and so I'm really thankful. From the rehab side, it is tricky to be in a situation where you are in a conservative management only but no support for stifle injury. So sorry, knee injuries, and I'm really excited about the different token system for that too. With the patella, depending on the grade, it can also support patellar luxation, which is exciting because with rehab we can do a lot with patellar luxation also. So combined it's going to be interesting to see what we can achieve. So those would be, I think, some main conditions.

Speaker 2:

Now a couple terms there. Just maybe could we clarify. Conservative management Is that no surgeries just having the pet do their best because maybe the surgery is out of the price range of the family, right?

Speaker 6:

Or maybe surgery, anesthetic risk level, those kind of things. But I hope that conservative management is also rehab regardless. It should never anymore be just letting the animal have to deal with it themselves. We do have professionals that can make things better. So that would be what I consider conservative management.

Speaker 2:

And there was another one. You have to forgive me, I'm not a dog. I don't know much about dog anatomy, like the terms you mentioned. That patella, yes, sorry.

Speaker 6:

The kneecap. What's that? I'm sorry the knee. Sorry the kneecap. What's that? I'm sorry the kneecap.

Speaker 2:

The kneecap. Okay, gotcha, it just reminds me of Disney's Hercules. I don't know if you've seen that cartoon.

Speaker 6:

It's been a while. It's been a while, but I do like it.

Speaker 2:

Hades does say he does call one of the minions a pain in the patella.

Speaker 6:

So now I guess I know it's a pain in the kneecap.

Speaker 2:

Would that be correct? Pain in the kneecap. Yes, I'm sorry, got a huck and masaka cut in my throat. I don't know. Love that old movie. Yeah, just on an aside, if they ever make a live action disney's hercules, you know how they're making all these live action oh yeah movie movies like the lion king and aladdin. Um, I am pro shirtless Danny DeVito as Phil Atiti's Like they have to do that.

Speaker 6:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

No CGI to shirtless Danny DeVito for Phil Atiti's. I'm just throwing that out there. Disney, if you're listening, absolutely, we'll go back to Phil. How did Wimba come about? What's the story for this company?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so Fronic and Greg Coe mentioned are the founders of Wimbo.

Speaker 1:

We're actually on the.

Speaker 4:

O&P, which is orthotics and prosthetics on the human side. So they've taken a lot of the learnings that they had running that type of business and applied them to the animal space. And, as I'm sure a lot of listeners, a lot of your listeners know, people are delaying having kids, at least here in the United States. It's seemingly more and more Obviously with COVID a lot more people have gotten dogs and there's a large portion of animals that are in need of some kind of support. We have the National Canine Arthritis Foundation.

Speaker 4:

Estimates that one in five dogs will experience some form of knee joint disease during their lifetime. It's also estimated that more than four to five million knee operations are performed annually worldwide and, in addition, that approximately 200 million dogs worldwide are affected by osteoarthritis. So we're just at the precipice of trying to help and effectuate change in this industry, because we know that there is a lot of dogs in need, and the whole idea of this is that we are making the process of scanning an animal's limb which, as you can imagine, is not the easiest thing to make that easier, to use technology to scale up the affordability, the technology and really just revolutionize the whole space to allow this to become the standard of care, that it's not surgery or nothing, that there are other options and we still, as Emily mentioned, we still recommend surgery and especially TPLO as being the gold standard for a dog knee injury. But there are other circumstances and we do think that Wimba, in those circumstances, is an excellent choice for an option for those families.

Speaker 2:

Love that, phil, excellent choice from a for an option for those families. Love that, phil, but like just harking back to. So you're saying that dogs aren't the easiest to scan. It's not like they're super squirmy or anything right like they just love.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we've done cats as well, which is always a fun adventure I don't know if you guys heard in the background, but there's like a thumping sound. We, our cat wants to come in. When I do podcasting she throws herself up to try and jump in like open the door. Anyway, she's here now. Yeah, she's hard, she would be hard to scan, but then that would be a cut scan, wouldn't it? It would, um, just as a fun aside, uh, both of you, have you seen some of the? I guess I'll go to the doc emily. Um, if you're on tiktok, how accurate are those videos of the different dog breeds, like getting weighed or their nails clipped, cleaned? Have you seen those? Or trimmed?

Speaker 6:

I'm so sorry, I'm not on tiktok, but on instagram I've seen something similar where like people are acting it out right yeah, people are acting out. I've seen some vet techs act this out and they should get awards because it's accurate.

Speaker 1:

It's so accurate.

Speaker 2:

It's accurate. I see it makes me.

Speaker 6:

It's the same, just with the whole, like not wanting to get on or faking to get on, or I'm going to pretend like I'm doing anything else.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I have an inkling. There's a 10 million view video of the both of you acting out. A different animal, different dog breed getting scanned.

Speaker 6:

Oh, we should.

Speaker 1:

We won't mention that to our brand manager.

Speaker 2:

Oh no. Which dog breed would be the squirmiest, do you think?

Speaker 6:

Oh, that's really hard, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure on that depends on the day.

Speaker 2:

Depends on the day yes so just a couple more questions about wimba and it's on the tech front, so I'm not sure which of you could answer this. I do 3d printing myself. I'm a big nerd and I build costumes for comic-con and I built like a mandalorian armor and all the stuff, like I 3d print all that thing, all that stuff. But it sounds like you guys are using like a different 3d printer than my creality or my artillery, the one that I've got at home yeah, so actually our stifle brace looks a lot like a mandalorian armor or iron and leg.

Speaker 4:

This is the way this is the way but from a printing standpoint they are different, but they're not so different. So our 3d printing as I mentioned, we utilize hewlett packard's 3d printers, which are multi-jet, which is the technology, but it uses a powder and then that powder is heated and 3D printed. These printers are a lot bigger than the ones that you have in your office or in your garage. They also have a cleaning station and there's some post-processing, but at its core it's not super different. It's just, I would say, more in a more industrial type of material and it prints the binding agent into the powder, Am I correct?

Speaker 2:

Like the? That's how it does it and that forms the print as it moves.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I would have to clarify that with our engineering team. Yeah, so we're certainly not the first. Hewlett Packard has a huge 3D printing division of a lot of different medical devices. One of my former companies used this material in spine surgery those infants that have the soft skull. There's a company that's actually 3D printing mini helmets for those cases out of the same material.

Speaker 2:

That is adorable. I just think I printed a little Thanos helmet for a kid, and that's obviously a different. Anyways, keep going.

Speaker 4:

There's a lot of applications. I think Brooks running signed a contract with Hewlett Packard to utilize it in a shoe coming out, so it's been used in a lot of different applications. We're using it specifically. To my knowledge, we're the only canine animal company that is utilizing it, but it's been used in a lot of medical instances before, so we're not the first on that, but we're the first to, to my knowledge, to apply it to the veterinary world.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So then my next question is logistics, and I apologize if this is an ignorant question. Do you, do you make an order? Do you scan your dog and be Bob Boop, like in a month or so? The thing comes in the mail. What's what? How does that work?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and I probably should have touched on this we do have an app. So there's a Wimba app. Oh, really, yeah, yeah. And the cool thing about that is obviously apps are always being updated. So we have a lot of cool ideas that we're working on from the R&D perspective and our app right now is an ordering tool and kind of inventory management of your orders. But we certainly have aspirations for much more kind of grandiose and cool features in the app in the future.

Speaker 4:

But you scan the animal and when we say scan, these are just videos, the same type of video you would take of your pets. You upload them to the app. Video you would take of your pets. You upload them to the app. When we are doing the scanning, we are wrapping the limb itself either in vet wrap or we have these very colorful pink camo sleeves and that actually helps. Our algorithm and our software differentiate the limb in space from a back wall. So you certainly wouldn't want a white sleeve on a white wall because it would make it very difficult. So that helps. But we take those videos, we upload them via the app.

Speaker 4:

Our engineers will create the orthosis or the prosthesis and then or the device and based on that, the clinician will approve it, it and then roughly, we try to say around 15 days, 15 business days, from Poland. Right now it is shipped to customers all over the world. We are obviously speaking to you from the United States, but we are in have to check the number but a myriad of countries from the EU to Israel, to Canada. We're continuing to expand from that front. I know we're in Australia, so this is a very global operation that we're talking about, and then from there it's fitted to the animal and they're off and running and hopefully the animal is regaining their mobility based off wearing the device.

Speaker 2:

And then a question for the doc Emily. So is this something that people would need to talk to their own vet about? Hey, I'm going to scan my dog and get a thing off the internet that may sound sketchy at first. You know what I mean. Is this something that people should talk to their vet about before they just they go on the app and check it out?

Speaker 6:

Yes. So Wimba is great about that and actually, to clarify, they would need to get it through a Wimba provider. That is going to be a veterinarian or a rehabilitation therapist or someone along those lines. You're not going to be able to scan your own dog by yourself without a professional, because a professional is going to need to diagnose what's going on and make sure that this is the right decision. What I really like about WEMBA and I have from the beginning is that WEMBA is focused on pets getting better, not anything else. So they're wanting your patient or your dog to get better with the right device, and so that's where it's important to make sure that we've got a correct diagnosis and that you've talked about it with a professional. But always, too, if your veterinarian's unsure, that doesn't mean anything's wrong, because things can be newer and they haven't really been explored, because a general practice veterinarian, for example, has to learn all sorts of new things every year. Medicine is constantly changing.

Speaker 6:

And so this might not be something that quite hit their CE radar yet, and so just don't think that something's wrong either direction. If they're not quite sure what you're talking about at first because I am a rehab vet, but that's why I know about it is because I sought out a solution for my patients. And if you don't have the same kind of focus, like I don't focus on new surgical techniques, for example, because I don't do surgeries anymore. So if someone came and talked to me about a brand new surgical technique, I wouldn't really know what they're talking about. So always just be pleasant, positive with any professional you're reaching out to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I can't imagine how much vets have to know. Did you hear about the new snake surgery? Like how many different? Sorry, my cat, the cat is going to Okay Ginger out. Oh my God, sorry.

Speaker 6:

Do not worry, my cat meows in meetings all the time. Do not worry, my cat meows in meetings all the time.

Speaker 2:

This cat will tell you. It's a whole story. With this cat, I am allergic to cats and my family used my podcast science against me because I did a story about the food that makes you not allergic to cats anymore. And now we have this cat and this cat loves me.

Speaker 6:

It was meant to be.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a whole. Anyways, I'm going to have to cut this, jason, when you're, when you're editing this on descript. Please cut this section, okay. So who does the app tell you which vets are wimba people? Do you guys it like uber? Does it show you where the wimba people are moving around so you can find them? I don't know, like, how does? How does that?

Speaker 4:

work.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, that's a good question, but I just know, I'm a Canadian that lives in the middle of nowhere. It's a treat to use Uber. When I'm in a big city, I was like, ooh, look at all the Ubers moving around.

Speaker 4:

We do not have that feature yet. Hopefully in the future we are building out kind of an interactive map. We do have an awesome social media presence that is growing by the day. We have a really cool website that allows you to chat with Ozzy, who is the dog chat feature, and that is where you can go and submit your information and we will either find the nearest provider or we can work directly with your own veterinarian. The nearest provider we can work directly with your own veterinarian because they should have a baseline of diagnosing the pathologies, as Emily has mentioned. So there's a lot of different options, but certainly I encourage anybody that is even unsure if they're animal to reach out to their own veterinarian or reach out to the specialist at Wimba on our website and we'll point you in the right direction.

Speaker 2:

Okay, perfect. That is now the complete picture. I so appreciate you both working together to explain that. I just figured it would be. It's probably not as easy scanning your dog, pressing send and a thing arrives in the mail. I'm like, how does it know?

Speaker 6:

Can I give just a quick? Can I give a quick example?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 6:

Of just someone had reached out recently for their own rescue dog, and so I did get on a call with them after some emails back and forth hearing their story. But luckily, instead of just ordering something that they thought was the right decision, I got to hear more of the background and use my clinical mind, and while I'm not being their vet from a distance, I'm saying, okay, I now see a bigger picture and some clinical concerns, and I wouldn't want you to have this device yet because you need to get a further workup from your veterinarian and get some pain that it sounds like we may have under control before moving forward. And so that's where the whole picture and where Wimba truly caring comes into play.

Speaker 2:

Love that. You guys are awesome. Perfect, Okay, just a quick, quick aside before we move on. Have we covered both what you feel Wimba is all about? Can we move to the like? Maybe the pet story, the pet story that Emily has about her dog. Is that cool or is there anything else I should ask?

Speaker 4:

I think that's it. I think we did a good job of trying to lay out how many dogs are in need of this and where this fits, and Emily has done a great job of kind of putting into perspective that we are a medical device company for animals, but it is driven by our veterinary partners providers and as well as rehab professionals.

Speaker 2:

Okay, perfect, all right. Well, thank you both for talking about Wimba. It's fascinating. At the end, we'll maybe touch base about where the website is and where the app is, and, as always, we'll have links in the show notes. We have some standard questions that we ask our guests every interview, and the first one is for a pet story. This might be I think we might be getting a pet story that also intertwines with Wimba. Doc, you were going to talk about your pet story.

Speaker 6:

Yes, so I will try to again brief it down, but Kalina is my tripod. She is a hind limb amputee and she came into my life when I was on the island of St Kitts in vet school at Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine. A fellow student in my class I think a couple students actually rescued her from a situation where her leg was broken from a hit by car. That actually happened a long time before and so at that point she was not a candidate for fixing the leg because of a bone infection and other serious concerns that we had to take care of. So the limb was amputated and that I tried my best. I asked the questions, I wanted to know how I could support her and I was in vet school the best place to learn what you should do.

Speaker 4:

I guess, you would.

Speaker 6:

We learn a lot as medicine grows and changes. I did my best through all of that, but at the time rehab was a thing, but it wasn't as promoted in vet school, and so, as I continued on as a veterinarian in a lot of different paths, she also had a wonderful life. She was that tripod that acted like nothing was wrong. She just went. She would go and swim out into the ocean and you're like wait, no, come back. Where are you going?

Speaker 2:

Beaker Argolden is a pirate. When she was little she jumped out of our kayak, swam across a mountain lake and got into somebody else's kayak.

Speaker 6:

Oh, my goodness, yeah, so it's just adventure. Dogs are adventure dogs, man. They love life and you can't really stop them completely and you don't want to. You love seeing their joy and that's really truly what a huge part of what she taught me our whole time together this far. But fast forward, it's now been a bit of time and she's a senior and she was just she was about estimated about two when I adopted her and so now it's been quite a bit of time, about 10 years.

Speaker 6:

She started having some problems being older, having muscle wasting, arthritis in every limb now, and I was. That's really what got me into rehab therapy and I didn't even expect fully to get my certification. I just thought I wanted to learn the first course for her and then the more I learned, the more I was like I've got to share this. I can only think of so many patients constantly that I wish I had known about this in more detail earlier. Type thing. And Kalina improved a lot with that rehab therapy.

Speaker 6:

We got to go back on adventures safely because that's always, yeah, you can drag your dog to anywhere and that doesn't mean it's the safest options. Keeping that in mind, as she got older, building her strength back up through rehab. But then unfortunately she did slip on some ice one February and I'm very thankful for the rehab we did ahead of time because she did then have the muscling to help her through a cruciate tear being a tripod. So she only has one knee and then she tore a ligament in that knee. So that was a very hard time for us because she would not accept a wheelchair and she couldn't really walk well and so she was basically then walking on only her front limbs, which is about the time I reached out to Wimba. I saw like the scanning we had actually tried a traditional stifle orthotic. That did not do well with her situation. Things actually got worse with that device and I was very disheartened and it was just hard for everyone because with with any device there's time and money, but mostly time because as we're waiting for it to come in, we're trying to be careful not to let her cause more harm in the process of moving. But she still has to do day-to-day activities like moving and the muscles start wasting faster and faster as you're not moving. And all of that especially in a senior. Things just felt pretty hopeless for a while there and then I got to meet with Wimba and they said, oh, we don't have the stifle ready yet, it's not. At that time this was last year it was not anywhere close to being ready in time for Kalina's acute injury meaning recent. So now she's got the chronic, the longer lasting.

Speaker 6:

But what happened with that acute injury is, since we went back and forth about that different orthotic device and spend a lot of time on that and ended up worse off on that back leg, then we had carpal hyperextension, meaning her wrists started collapsing on both of her front limbs Because all she could do was I had a harness and I would help her outside. But she's just walking on her front limbs and she was already again a senior and she's already been a tripod for this long. So it's not like that's the one reason. But the carpal laxity became too much and so then she just lost that joy I was talking about earlier, where she just wasn't herself anymore and we were I'm sorry, we just we were really having to ask questions. I wasn't ready to ask even at that age, and so when Wimba said, yeah, but we have these carpal orthotic devices, I was, yeah, let's give them a try.

Speaker 6:

And they, long story short, made all the difference in that period where, yeah, we can't fix the stifle, but what it gave her back was that joy and that spark in her eyes and her wanting to go to the backyard again and her wanting to be outside, which has always been since the first day of knowing her.

Speaker 6:

She was just happier outside. And so getting to have all of that back and then build because you can't do as well with rehab if the dog is not engaged and it's not happy to be doing the exercises with you and they need to be able to safely do the exercises and so we were in this downward spiral. But what Wimba's braces did for her wrists was give us the opportunity to turn that spiral around and go on an upward spiral. And now she doesn't even need the braces all the time. We just do them for walks or exercises. But we could. Because of that token system and combining that with canine rehabilitation therapy, we built back up the muscles around her wrists to where she's not uncomfortable walking around even without the braces. That's not the case for every situation, but for Kalina's story that's really what it was was. It was our little miracle.

Speaker 2:

Love it. I can hear the love in your voice for your dog, and so many people listen to our podcast. They would give the sun and the moon to help their dog out. So it sounds like you were at that point too, and Wimba was the sun and the moon.

Speaker 6:

It really was.

Speaker 2:

That must. Did you get the warm fuzzies, phil? I don't want to try to.

Speaker 4:

I don't want to try to go after that. We are super excited. As Dr Emily mentioned, we now have a stifle brace device available for pet parents and are in the process of getting Emily's dog, kalina, fit for that, and I've already advocated that she goes as iron man for halloween because we'll have all limbs, wimbo eyes, if that's even a word, and we're definitely excited about getting that. So hopefully she can. Our dogs are at the same age and, to her point, the senior dogs. You just want to see that joy and get them outside and feeling better. So so thank you, emily, for telling your story and yeah, that's such a rough point in a dog's life, like we talked to not too long ago.

Speaker 2:

Her name's Dr Faith Banks. She does, she's a euthanasia doctor and she has a scale of when it's time, and that's the time that she says is when the dog has lost its joy. She had that point. How painful it was.

Speaker 6:

Yeah I felt like it was a ticking time because I have those checklists too, and so when I'm watching what I've advised others to start ticking off and there's nothing I can do about it, it's really there's no words that's that's awesome that Wimba was there with all the Iron man pieces.

Speaker 5:

Iron.

Speaker 2:

Man 3, they all came at different times. I don't know if you've seen the third one, wimba pieces assemble, right, yes, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Maybe it'll be remote controlled one day, but we're not there yet, whoa.

Speaker 2:

Fancy schmancy. That's a beautiful story, emily. Thank you for sharing. Now one of the last things. One of the last common questions we ask our guests is for a super fact. I did send this ahead of time, so I don't know if you got anything left in your tank to give us a little super fact, something that blows people away. I'll throw it to both of you if you have one prepared.

Speaker 4:

Yeah thing that blows people away. I'll throw it to both of you if you have one prepared. Yeah, so some people may know this. I know I've seen it on a couple of the animal blogs and stuff but a dog's nose print. There's growing evidence to show that is as unique and a biometric marker as a human's fingerprint. So the idea is that if you got a database of dogs' nose prints, you wouldn't have to chip them and stuff you could potentially use that. So that's a pretty cool, unique, fun fact that I always go back to in something. When I saw it I was like, oh man, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

We just need to start nose printing them so I can figure out who stole my sandwich. Actually, it's probably me. It's probably me. I don't need no database, it's the golden retriever guaranteed.

Speaker 4:

Definitely my money would be on the golden retriever as well, the Bernice Mountain Dog.

Speaker 2:

He's sleeping. Bunsen is sleeping. He's not up for no caper. That's a great super fact, phil. I love that. So before we do wrap, it is is I don't want to say destiny, because that would be weird, but more ironic in that I'm talking to both you guys about orthopedics for dogs and like rehab, and our bernice mountain dog may have tore his cruciate.

Speaker 2:

Bunsen is our bernice mountain dog. He's the face of our brand and he woke up last week and was limping really badly. Now he's a bit of a diva, I'm not gonna lie. He has tricked us twice that he was injured, when really he wasn't. He did not want to go on a mountain hike and he pretended he was seriously injured and started to limp. And he made everybody around us think we were ogres, because we had this limping dog and it looked like we were going to take him on an adventure. So we had to drive back to town.

Speaker 2:

We were so worried about him, took him to the vet and the vets no, there's nothing wrong with him, he was tricking you. He didn't want to go on the walk after some kind of expensive scans. We still love him, but this was real. The limp didn't go away. So we did take him into the vet and the vet was like it's tough to know for sure if it's tear without xyz, if it is a, if it is a full tear, probably he'll need surgery. But it could be a partial tear and you could just rest him and see if it goes away and we're like, okay, we'll rest him. And it went away. It's been a week of rest and about three days ago the limp went away. So I guess, doc, what do you think? What do you think?

Speaker 6:

First off, I am so sorry that Bunsen's not feeling a hundred percent, because that's never fun, no.

Speaker 6:

And I would love for it to fully go away. But there's just some things I want to point out, which is one it's hopefully, if it's just a partial tear, just because they stop limping doesn't mean that there's not still healing to be done. And so definitely, just because we stop limping doesn't mean we're in the clear for adventures again. And I would definitely, in addition to having a wonderful veterinarian, reach out to some sort of certified rehabilitation therapist, because partial tears also need rehab. That's going to be the best way to decrease the risk of a full tear. And then also, as you probably noticed, when we're limping that means we're offloading to the other knee, the other side, and we don't want to put too much strain for a big dog suddenly on another side. But then also they can give you some great long-term things once you get past the limping, say we don't fully stop limping and we go to rehab and we do stop limping. Most rehab professionals will also help you for the future. So what you learn during your dog's rehab is very valuable for a dog who goes on adventures.

Speaker 6:

It's what I do. I love it Is preparing dogs for adventures. Even so, they have less likelihood of re-injuring or getting a new injury. So it would be very valuable to add some canine rehabilitation therapy. If there's a partial tear, especially with cruciate tears even a full tear, depending on the situation, the reasoning, sometimes like I used those words before acute versus chronic. Sometimes dogs can actually I know you said that or divas sometimes, but they also can hide some things without really meaning to. It's just that they're so excited about life.

Speaker 6:

And so what happens with some cruciate tears, especially those that were partial, that maybe just weren't fully caught because we didn't fully go through imaging and all that, which is totally fine, um, but, for example, some dogs can be so tense at the vet that they their muscles lock down, which is great in ways, because that's honestly how kalina walks, is her muscles lock down and stabilize. But it can make it to where there's a test, that is, a manual hand test, that there's two of them that you can do as a veterinarian. But the dogs can be a false negative, meaning that they can look like, oh no, the cruciate's fine, but really it's just because their muscles are so tense. There's a lot of different things and I won't get into all of it for that testing, but a partial tear is still something to take seriously and I would reach out to a rehab therapist.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for your advice. We'll do everything we can for Bunsen. We love him with all of our hearts. That big guy, he looms large in our house and when he's lying on the couch, so we want the best life for him.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, and that's where the Wimba stifle is for a partial tear a possibility and one that I'm really excited about for the future, Because before in rehab we didn't really have any stabilization for our exercises. You either have surgery for stabilization or you don't have stabilization, and it makes it a little bit harder. Even today, we just had a fitting for a partial tear stifle, so a knee with a partial tear, so it's something that is a an option if that's what the provider decides.

Speaker 2:

I so appreciate your medical advice. Thank you, doc, really appreciate you giving us that Both we're at the end of the show. Thank you, doc. I really appreciate you giving us that Both we're at the end of the show. Thank you so much for giving up your time to talk to us on the Science Podcast. I guess two kind of questions before we wrap up is if people wanted to reach out to Wimba, is the website the best? Do you guys have an email or are you on social media?

Speaker 4:

All of the above. So all our social media channels are at Wimba Vet V-E-T. Our website itself is Wimba Vet and you can use the chat feature If you guys wanted to email us. The email is hello at Wimbavet. That's easy to remember.

Speaker 2:

But if you can't remember that, it's going to be in the show notes as a hyperlink, everybody, because that's how we roll.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, that would be. That'll be easier as well.

Speaker 2:

Love it To. Both of you. Have a great evening. Thank you so much for being a guest and for the work you do for dogs man, we're all about that and thank you so much for providing these services to the creatures on Earth that we care about the most.

Speaker 6:

Thank you so much for talking about this and sharing the science to everyone.

Speaker 4:

Okay. Yes, jason, thank you Okay it is time for Story, okay.

Speaker 5:

Yes, jason, thank you. Okay, it is time for story time with me, adam. If you don't know what story time is, story time is when we talk about stories that have happened within the past one or two weeks. Dad, do you have a story? I do.

Speaker 2:

I took Bernoulli to my school and he was a huge hit. It was super adorable, very, very cute. Everybody loves him and Bernoulli is very friendly with everybody. He's kind of a cuddly guy, so he likes to snuggle in when people are petting him, which is what you want a puppy to do. And unlike his shark bite piranhas that's really come out in the last week in a bit he was super gentle to all the kids. He wasn't nipping them or biting them and if he was, it was like super, super gentle, not like his like pinchy teeth that we're getting here at home. I just want to mention it really quick On Father's Day I was in a car accident.

Speaker 2:

I'm okay. I was dinged up a little bit and pretty stiff. I'm still kind of stiff and Beaker was in the car with me. She's okay as well. We need to do a better job of harnessing in the dogs.

Speaker 2:

So I did a PSA on Twitter about uh, actually I did a PSA about it all over the place, just about I. You know, I was very lucky. Um, beaker was in the back and she got flipped into the front from somebody rear-ending me. Um, it was. I was not at fault. This other person was definitely at fault and I was very lucky. I was lucky that I was not seriously injured. I was lucky that our the vehicle should have been split in two. For how hard we got hit and, um, it appears to have no significant damage and and then, very lucky, that Beaker was, aside from being very scared right after it happened, totally fine. So I just want to remind everybody that if you are traveling with pets, harness them in or have them in a really good travel crate and never, ever, travel with your pets in your lap, especially if the airbags are on, because if you have a little pet and you go flying forward and the airbag goes off, that is a catastrophic situation. So just a little PSA there. That's my story.

Speaker 5:

Okay, it is time for my story, my story. I have one normal story and then one tiny little story that I'll add on at the end. Um. So my story is about bernoulli. I was playing with him today. Um, he was being he was being very rambunctious, uh, around supper time, because I was eating fries and I didn't let him have any.

Speaker 1:

Which you shouldn't.

Speaker 5:

He was jumping up and he was barking at Annalise and I so he started biting at my pant legs because I wasn't giving him any attention. So I started running around and he's freakishly fast, he's very fast, he's just running after me. And I was running around and he kept on trying to bite me because he was because we started playing, and then I ran, I just I ran around, I ran into. We have a pantry that like connects to our uh, to like the, the back door kind of. So like you walk through the pantry, there's an entrance in our kitchen and then an entrance in our back door area, so you can walk all the way through. And I hit him with the, the bamboozle trick. I walked from where I was at the back door up to the, the kitchen and I walked behind him and he didn't understand how it happens. None of the dogs understand how it works.

Speaker 2:

it's like I went through a portal yeah, you tell them they are so confused when you do that yeah, um, but then I I came back and he was.

Speaker 5:

He got even more riled up because he didn't understand how it worked. And then I gave him a toy and he was fine. But my mini story is we hung out with my friend at Sylvan Lake today and then we went back to her house. Like Annalise and I hung out with my friend and then we went back to her house and she has two cats and they were being super funny. I would pick one of them up and the one didn't like getting picked up and I would go and I got angry with but I was like you're too cute to get angry, so I kept on picking it up and then the other cat didn't want anything to do with us. Oh, bernoulli is eating your shoe, annalise. Yeah, those are my, that's my. That's my one big story and my one tiny story. Um, but yeah, mom will be here with her story soon. She's just dealing with Annalisa's shoes being put away. Okay, mom, do you have a story?

Speaker 3:

I sure do. I love coming home at lunch and letting Bernoulli out and playing with him and Bunsen and Beaker of course, but especially making a connection with him. So every day at lunch I get to split up my day, come home for healthy food and hang out with little Bernoulli. Now he is a bit of a savage, I'm not going to lie. He. He has like a witching hour that's what I'm going to call it where he's bitey and bitey and even more bitey. You think you can't be any more bitey. But oh, he is very bitey in the early evening, but at lunchtime it's like he is cool as a cucumber, he's calm, he's tired. I don't know. Maybe it's because he's up until God knows when. Last night he was up at 3.30 for the rest of the night. So I'm a little tired. I'm running on fumes, I guess, for sleep. But it's okay, bernoulli is worth it and that's my story. Okay, we have a special guest.

Speaker 5:

Bernoulli is worth it and that's my story. Okay, we have a special guest on the podcast, another one, a special guest, excluding the special guest that you interviewed earlier, dad. We have Annalise and she has a story to say.

Speaker 1:

Hello. So with my story kind of related to Bernoulli, but I mostly want to talk about Ginger. So she's had a pretty rough go with the new puppy. Unfortunately Bernoulli doesn't really understand that the cat is a little more delicate of an animal to play with and ginger just kind of gets attacked by him. But hopefully they will learn that soon. But um, last night after all the pets went to sleep, adam and I went um downstairs and we had some really good times with ginger where we kind of just played with her and cuddled with her and she was being really silly and it's just nice to see her kind of as her normal cat self and not afraid of all the dogs. But yeah, that's my story.

Speaker 5:

All right, that's it for story time. Thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast episode and thank you for sticking around to my section. I have Bernoulli here. He says goodbye to he's. Oh, he hit the mic. He says he's waving at you guys. He's waving goodbye to everybody. Oh, he made a little noise. He's a little unhappy. Yeah, he's unhappy. Oh, take a and at least took him. Anyway, that's my section. Thank you so much for sticking around. I'll see you on the next one. Bye, bye.

Speaker 2:

That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen, special thanks to our guests from Wimba and a big shout out to the Top Dogs. That's the top tier of the Paw Pack Plus. One of the perks is you get your name shouted out at the end. We really appreciate your support.

Speaker 3:

Chris, let's hear those names Peggy McKeel, terry Adam, debbie Anderson, sandy Breimer, tracy Leinbaugh, marianne McNally Fun, lisa Shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen, brianne Haas, linda Sherry, carol McDonald, catherine Jordan, courtney Proven, donna Craig, wendy, diane Mason and Luke Liz Button, Kathy Zerker and Ben Rathart.

Speaker 2:

For science, empathy and cuteness.