What if we told you that a simple skin patch could help desensitize toddlers with peanut allergies? It's true! Join us as we explore this groundbreaking immunotherapy treatment and discuss the science behind peanut allergies. Plus, ever thought about feeding your dog a vegan diet? We had our doubts, but a recent study on vegan dog food might just change your mind.
We're thrilled to have Dr. Yara Haridy as our expert guest in this episode! Dr. Haridy shares her insights on dinosaur bones, osteocytes, and how understanding these cells can improve our knowledge of life on earth. We'll also learn about some captivating extinct animals like Chomarasaurus and Pachycephalosaurs, as well as the Armored Ancient Fish and Giant Sloths.
Lastly, we'll take a fascinating dive into the world of animal age and growth, comparing life in captivity to life in the wild. We'll explore the mysteries of aging and growing dinosaurs, from theropods with 40 to 50 rings to the possibility of multiple rings due to harsh seasons. And get ready to be entertained a our project to build a velociraptor puppet, designed to teach people about animal evolution and the awesomeness of feathers. Don't miss out on this incredible episode of the Science Podcast!
Yara's Links:
Yara on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/Yara_Haridy
Yara's Website:
http://www.thebarebones.org/
Bunsen and Beaker Links:
The Ginger Stuffie is on presale this week (May 20-28 2023) so check the link here:
www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
Join The Paw Pack to Support The Show!
https://bunsenbernerbmd.com/pages/paw-pack-plus-community
The Bunsen and Beaker Website has adorable merch with hundreds of different combinations of designs and apparel- all with Printful- one of the highest quality companies we could find!
www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
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For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
Being Kind is a Superpower.
https://twitter.com/bunsenbernerbmd
What if we told you that a simple skin patch could help desensitize toddlers with peanut allergies? It's true! Join us as we explore this groundbreaking immunotherapy treatment and discuss the science behind peanut allergies. Plus, ever thought about feeding your dog a vegan diet? We had our doubts, but a recent study on vegan dog food might just change your mind.
We're thrilled to have Dr. Yara Haridy as our expert guest in this episode! Dr. Haridy shares her insights on dinosaur bones, osteocytes, and how understanding these cells can improve our knowledge of life on earth. We'll also learn about some captivating extinct animals like Chomarasaurus and Pachycephalosaurs, as well as the Armored Ancient Fish and Giant Sloths.
Lastly, we'll take a fascinating dive into the world of animal age and growth, comparing life in captivity to life in the wild. We'll explore the mysteries of aging and growing dinosaurs, from theropods with 40 to 50 rings to the possibility of multiple rings due to harsh seasons. And get ready to be entertained a our project to build a velociraptor puppet, designed to teach people about animal evolution and the awesomeness of feathers. Don't miss out on this incredible episode of the Science Podcast!
Yara's Links:
Yara on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/Yara_Haridy
Yara's Website:
http://www.thebarebones.org/
Bunsen and Beaker Links:
The Ginger Stuffie is on presale this week (May 20-28 2023) so check the link here:
www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
Join The Paw Pack to Support The Show!
https://bunsenbernerbmd.com/pages/paw-pack-plus-community
The Bunsen and Beaker Website has adorable merch with hundreds of different combinations of designs and apparel- all with Printful- one of the highest quality companies we could find!
www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
Sign up for our Weekly Newsletter!
Our Spaces Sponsor: Bark and Beyond Supply
https://barkandbeyondsupply.com/
Bunsen and Beaker on Twitter:
Bunsen and Beaker on TikTok:
Bunsen and Beaker on Facebook
InstaBunsandBeaks
For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
Being Kind is a Superpower.
https://twitter.com/bunsenbernerbmd
Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zakowski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there.
Speaker 2:If you have kids in high school or you know teachers, this last bit before the summer is super busy. So Chris and I are burning the midnight candle, both literally and figuratively. No, just kidding, we have lights. I've been asked to present or be a stage show presenter at the Red Deer Children's Festival, so that's coming up. We'll probably talk about that next week. And Chris is scurrying around everywhere organizing this huge event called the Marching Show Band Classic. It's really big. It's for Adams Band. There's show bands that come from all over Alberta and they put on this really cool show here in our hometown. And, as the Vice President, that's Chris's job is to organize the whole thing. So we are going separate ways to organize two very different events And I've snuck away to record the Science Podcast, all right.
Speaker 2:Well, what's happening on the show this week? In Science News, we're going to look at peanut allergies. Okay, there's some really cool clinical trials coming out about a patch In Pet Science. We're going to look at something we've been tagged at before And I may maybe made a snap judgment about it. It's vegan dog food. So I took a deep dive into a study that just came out analyzing vegan dog food, or a vegan dog food diet.
Speaker 2:In our Ask an Expert section, we have Dr Yara Hardy, who's going to be talking to us about dinosaur bones and dinosaurs and a whole bunch of bony goodness. Okay, the bad joke. There are so many good dinosaur puns. We're going to do two. What do you call a dinosaur ghost? A scuridactyl, okay, okay. What do you call a group of dinosaurs who sing? This one's so good? A tyranocorus? Okay, on with the show, because there's no time like Science Time.
Speaker 2:This week in Science News, let's talk about peanut allergies. All right, now I've matured a bit since I was a younger parent. You might say I was an immature young parent, and the answer is yeah. I think I've grown a lot as a person as I've gotten older And I've come to be more empathetic to people's circumstances.
Speaker 2:Our oldest son, duncan. He was an extremely picky eater. It didn't matter what we served him. There's only two or three foods he would eat. That's it. He would refuse to eat other foods And as a parent you're like, oh my god, my kid's going to starve to death. But one of the foods that he loved was peanut butter. So he would eat peanut butter sandwiches. He wouldn't eat cheese sandwiches or ham sandwiches or anything Like as a sandwich. The only sandwich he would eat was peanut butter sandwiches.
Speaker 2:And when it was time to go to school, when it was time for him to go to kindergarten, his school was a no nuts school. You were not allowed to send kids with peanut foods. Like, everything had to be nut free No peanut butter sandwiches, no peanut butter cookies, even peanut butter oils that were used in baking or products you weren't allowed to have. And that was because throughout the school there were kids who were extremely allergic to peanut butter or nuts. Now, as I said, i've grown a lot. I was maybe a little frustrated. I accidentally sent Duncan with a peanut butter sandwich one day and he had to sit at the no nuts table. So of course they're not going to starve. The kids who accidentally had a dough headed parent not follow the rule. Duncan had to go eat at a table that was really far away and off, by himself and behind like a border.
Speaker 2:Now I've come to realize that there are some kids who are extremely allergic to peanuts and in elementary school, where they can't advocate for themselves, they're just kind of at the mercy for everybody else's food. If you're wondering what happens at my school, it's check yourself before you wreck yourself. Nobody checks people's food. You're allowed to eat whatever. So people who are extremely allergic to peanuts, they just have to be very careful And by the time they get to high school they've probably been through the ringer and know what to expect.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's where the personal story starts. And if you're wondering the exact reasons for why kids become so allergic to peanuts, it's not really understood. There's a genetic component, or it could be early exposure to peanuts. There seems to be a correlation. There seems to be a correlation that if you are exposed to peanuts early, you increase your risk of developing peanut allergy. Other research shows that if you're exposed early and you were maybe at higher risk like there is that genetic component the risk of developing severe peanut allergies go down. It's just kind of like a random crapshoot with some genetic components.
Speaker 2:Here comes the science story. Today There is a phase three clinical trial being conducted at Ann and Robert Lori Children's Hospital in Chicago, and they found that a year long immunotherapy treatment that uses a skin patch is effectively desensitizing toddlers who have an early peanut allergy. This study was randomized, it's double blind, it's placebo controlled And it uses kids who are between the ages of one to three. This phase three trial study was published in the New England Journal of Medicine. They took kids who initially reacted to a tiny fraction of peanuts and with this patch they were able to tolerate the equivalent of one to four peanuts after that, thus completing the therapy. Now these kids may never be able to eat copious amounts of peanuts or enjoy, you know, a giant bag of peanuts at a baseball game or peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but one to four peanuts may be the threshold of safety. You're not allowed to have peanuts ever, but getting some peanuts near you, or maybe even accidentally eating a tiny bit of peanuts, isn't the difference between life or death. If you're wondering, two percent of kids in westernized countries have some kind of peanut allergy that persists into adulthood. Currently there's no FDA approved peanut allergy treatments for kids under the age of four, so the fact that this worked is really exciting. Now, if you're wondering what's in the patch and I was too I went a little bit deeper to try and figure out what they put in the patch. Some of the kids got a placebo patch, but the ones that got the active patch they called the peanut patch, and it had peanut proteins in it, but at a level that wouldn't necessarily start to trigger an allergic reaction. So they started with the baseline and then they creep their way up to that to see if they could tolerate more peanuts after the 12 month study. Now, unfortunately it wasn't all the kids, so 64 percent of the kids could tolerate three to four peanuts after the trial. So the good thing is is that it seems to be working, and if parents catch their peanut allergies early enough in kids, maybe there's a way to turn from deadly to just dangerous or annoying. That's science news for this week.
Speaker 2:This weekend, pet Science we're going to look at dog diets. Now I've seen this before and we've actually been tagged by my products or ideas about having your dog be a vegan And I probably maybe had a snapback comment about how it's maybe not a good idea. I just thought that was kind of like weird that you could give your dog a vegan diet, because we feed Bunsen and Beaker raw food. So it's not the cheapest food, but it's got good protein and it's got all of their vegetables and it's just something that makes Bunsen's coat shine And, to be honest with you, it's a food that he tolerates, because he just throws up kibble. My guess is that we'd be feeding them very different food if Bunsen wasn't so sensitive with kibble. He just like vomits it up, all right. So vegan diets, vegan dog food what is going on there? And I do want to say I was wrong. If a diet for a dog is done correctly, they can have all of the proper nutrition and adequate minerals that they would get from kibble or from raw food.
Speaker 2:There are people who are vegan that do not like the idea of their animals eating meat, because they themselves do not eat meat. You can pull this off with dogs and we'll get into the science, but you really can't with cats. They're obligate carnivores and that means their body requires the nutrients only found in animal tissues. They have very specific dietary needs and they are difficult or impossible to meet with the vegan diet. That doesn't mean in the future there won't be some kind of like vegan-ish you know, i can't believe it's not cat food, cat food for dogs, but for right now that's a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2:The information in the study comes from the University of Illinois, and they did. They concluded that there are two human grade, slightly cooked vegan diets that provide nutrition that would allow dogs to be completely healthy. They took the vegan diet and they tested it against a chicken-based dog food kibble in beagles and then they looked at the beagles blood chemistry, fecal quality and their microbiome. Both of the diets met some pretty stringent standards set by the Association of American Feed Control Officials or AFICO. That organization gave both the vegan and the chicken-based kibble a quote-unquote, complete and balanced nutrition. That reminds me I'm a Gen Xer and the breakfast breakfast cereal commercials were like frosted flakes or like lucky charms and they would always say it's part of a complete breakfast and there would always be like milk and some fruit and, as we know, i mean those cereals are delicious.
Speaker 2:Don't get me wrong, I love me some lucky charms. I don't think they're super amazing. If that's all you eat for breakfast. I might get some hay haters out there that really like those breakfast cereals, but they're pretty sugary. What did the vegan diet have in it? I'll give you a list Lentils, garbanzo beans that's the funnest bean to say sweet potatoes, butternut squash, apples, blueberries, peas and carrots. Both of the diets were really easy to digest and there were no significant differences in poop between the two groups of beagles. One thing that was interesting is the dogs that were on the vegan diet had lower levels of blood triglycerides and cholesterol. That may be helpful if your dog is suffering from obesity or it needs to lose a little bit of weight. Not only were the blood triglycerides a little lower, but the fecal microbiome was better in the vegan diet.
Speaker 2:Dogs And the researchers also mentioned the poop didn't smell as bad. Okay, i've really not smelt Bunsen's moose leg poop. I probably super gross. The conclusion of the study is that the vegan diet for dogs is okay. It keeps them healthy. It's got all of the proteins and the macro micronutrients that they need for health. The diet has to be carefully formatted by nutritionists for dogs. If you just decide to whip up something at home for your dog that's vegan like today, the dogs are eating just carrots. You're probably gonna miss out on a whole bunch of proteins, so it's not like the average person could easily do this.
Speaker 2:You need to talk to an expert Now. I'm not going to promote any vegan dog food that's out there. I don't know the brands in the United States. I haven't looked into it in Canada And I would feel way more comfortable is that it didn't really mention it and they didn't mention it in the study. I would feel way more comfortable like talking to an actual veterinarian that specialized in nutrition before I started to like say, hey, this brand is good, but it is interesting And as scientists should.
Speaker 2:I admit I was wrong. I made a snap judgment. I said there's no way a dog should be on a vegan diet, but the science doesn't prove that. The science actually shows that dogs are okay And I guess, if you think about it, dogs are scavengers, right. They may go long periods of time, if not months and months and months, without getting meat and be okay, so fairly interesting. Hey, i would love to hear what you all think about this. Or, if you have dogs that are on a vegan diet, drop us a comment on Good Pods. That's Pet Science for this week.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, before we get to the interview section, here's a couple ways you can help the science podcast out. Number one if you're on any place that rates podcasts, give us a great rating. Tell your friends and share it with people who love science and pets, like teachers. Number two think about signing up as a member of the Paw Pack. It allows you to connect with people who love our show and it's a way to keep the show free. Number three check out our merch store. We have the Bunsen Stuffie 2.0. There's still some beaker stuffies left. They're adorable as well Warm, cuddly clothes and adorable drinkware. The link is in the show notes. Now on to the interview. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have Dr Yara Hardy with me today. Yara, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great, Jason. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you so much for the invite.
Speaker 2:We are excited to talk to you because we'll get into it. You know you study things in the past and like dinosaurs and fossils and ancient things, and that is all something that we love to talk about. But real quick, where are you calling into the show from? Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3:Currently I am in Chicago. I am now a close doc at the University of Chicago, So I'm in America.
Speaker 2:Have you moved around in your life with your education and training and stuff like that?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely. So in general, i've just traveled a bunch. My family lived all over the Middle East. I was born in Morocco, i'm Egyptian, i lived all over and then eventually moved to Canada where I spent maybe half my life, did my undergrad and my masters, then went to my, did my PhD in Berlin, germany, and now I'm here in the US Chicago. So all over.
Speaker 2:See and that would have been my second question, but you kind of touched on it Like what's your training in science? I introduced you as Dr Yara. What's your undergrad or doctorate in?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So I mean, this is kind of fun because I like to point this one out, where my traditional training was actually going towards medical school. I was training to go to medical school. I did that at the University of Toronto, where I did my undergrad in life science, and then I was studying for the MCATs, which are the tests that you take before you can apply to medical school. And man, did I hate it. I really did enjoy studying for it. It just didn't spark the curiosity joy for me. So I found a way to volunteer at a paleo lab and, as they say, the rest is history.
Speaker 2:And ironically, it is about history too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, deep time history.
Speaker 2:Okay. So when you were young, little Yara, were you fascinated with science or were you into other stuff? and science came later?
Speaker 3:I was definitely fascinated with natural life, and with that came science, but oddly enough not paleontology. Paleo came much later. The whole dinosaur phase that every kid has here in North America is not. it's not a thing. It's not a thing in the rest of the world, really.
Speaker 2:Not, really not to the same extent. What's the thing, kids?
Speaker 3:are obsessed with cars and marine life, that kind of thing still there. But the dino phase in North America is just wild.
Speaker 2:It is. I've got nieces and nephews now and they are like bananas for dinosaurs. They all love freaking love dinosaurs.
Speaker 3:And if you just go to any kids aisle, walmart, target, any general store, it's just dino bonanza. You are so right. You are so right. Even if a new movie is not coming out, it's just always there. It's just a constant.
Speaker 2:That is wild.
Speaker 3:But I think it it better for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were into the natural stuff, like when you went to a lake, river, ocean or something where you were collecting the fishes and the creepy crawlers Exactly exactly.
Speaker 3:I was picking up cups of snails and bringing them home and not realizing snails can crawl up a smooth surface and my mom had snails all over her bathroom that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:I love it, I love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, any plants, that kind of stuff. That always piqued my interest And I didn't like when someone would ask me what do you want to be when you grow up? I'm like I want to be in a forest, like that was just because that's where cool things were And I didn't really know that scientists could be like an actual profession.
Speaker 2:So, yeah. I love it. I have tears coming down the side of my eyes. I never thought just is so culturally different. I guess, like you're right, if you go to Toys R Us, there are freaking dinosaurs everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 3:Everywhere, I tell you, And strongly gendered, obviously, but it's getting better. But yeah, they're everywhere And what's wild is that you know, okay. So I have a PhD now, I have masters, and I have like three degrees under my belt And I go and I do science communication at schools And kids just talk right over my head telling me species names. The kids here in North America are amazing. There's like a wealth of knowledge about like their current obsession of like dinosaurs, So they know way more species than I do, which is just hilarious.
Speaker 2:Well, i was wondering if we could talk a little bit about your research that you did. It's been a little bit about bone cells, absolutely Okay. I don't even wanna try and do your research justice and paraphrase it, except from bone cells What happened? what's going on? Could you just tell us. It's so cool.
Speaker 3:Okay, so usually I like to start this with I study like all skeletal systems, so like the hard parts that make us not just goopy blobs, right, yeah, so it's very. If you look around you, all over a lot of animals are just goop. You know, worms are effectively goop jellyfish. There's a lot of animals out there that have no skeleton at all.
Speaker 3:Right squishies, so exactly the squishy boys. And so I always think why did you, why did we even evolve a skeleton in the first place? In some ways it limits us. In some ways it can be broken. It's also super expensive for our bodies to make. So why? And generally, that's what my research revolves around, and one branch of that is the cells that make our hard parts, and a specific group of cells are the bone cells, and so I started looking into those in my PhD because, unlike most cells, that don't fossilize right. So as the animal dies and the earth swallows it and it becomes a fossil in the rock record, the cells degrade because they're made of soft, squishy things. They don't really survive in the pressure and heat in our earth as they become fossils. But bone cells are very special, particularly a group of cells called osteocytes, and that's because they live in Osteocytes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you got it Osteocyte, which just means bone, and site means cell, so it's like the super creative name.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so they're really cool because they live inside the bone and they make little caves for themselves that are the exact shape of what they are. So if you're having a hard time imagining it, think of it this way. Think of like when you flop over and you make a snow angel and then you're gone, but the snow angel is still there, right, and the compression of the cell is still in the bone.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Does that kind of make sense Yeah, like if it was frozen, like you're gone, and then Mm-hmm. This is like for people who grew up in cold climates. you'll know that sometimes snow the right type of snow, like hardens very quickly, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or like footprints in the sand you know you're gone, but your impression is still there, that's right And it's a really good shape.
Speaker 2:I do believe I saw that quote on Pinterest some platitudes, so I get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what is it? Take only photographs, leave only footprints.
Speaker 2:That's right. Take only photographs, leave only footprints. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So what's fun about fossils is that we get these cool like big dinosaur bones, little you know, fish skeletons. We get everything, and inside them there's still a wealth of information. So the external fossil, the shape of the animal, gives us a bunch of information. But the inside of a fossil also gives us a bunch of information through these osteocyte shapes. These lacunae, which just means cave Lacunae is just like the whole the osteocyte lifted.
Speaker 2:I love that. So there's some fun words for you. That word gave me goosebumps Lacunae.
Speaker 3:Lacunae Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like Mufasa. I've got like the shivers Lacunae.
Speaker 3:It does roll off the tongue real nice. So yeah, i basically studied these lacunae And you can get all kinds of information from them. You can measure their size and get the volume, and the volume will tell you how big the cells were. You can count how many of them there are in a certain amount of bone and that will can't tell you about the animal's metabolism. You can measure how complex they are because they connect to their neighbors via these cell processes, so they kind of reach out their little hands I mean they're not hands but they're little cell spindles in every which direction to connect to other cells in 3D space. So it's a very complex system that you can actually measure in animals that are millions and millions of years old. So that's really fun and kind of complicated to explain, but I hope that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 2:No, okay, so you study these. I have a. What are some cool things you found? Okay, you mentioned that in studying them, you know the metabolism, potentially of the thing. Right, when you study a dinosaur, different dinosaurs have different metabolisms that you can tell based on these osteocytes.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, wow. So what's fun is that we can even compare this to real animals. So what we do is we take sections of all these extinct animals, including all kinds of dinosaurs, everything from stegosaurs to sauropods, the long neck dinosaurs to theropods, the meat eating dinosaurs. These animals, like modern animals, have different demands in their lifestyle. Being a predator is not the same thing as being a grazer that just eats grass and plants all day. So you can imagine the demands on their body is different and that's reflected in their physiology, the way that their body operates, and that, in the end, is also reflected in their osteocytes. So what we see in modern animals is things like mice and like think of hawks and raptor. You know, modern raptors and hawks and eagles have many more osteocytes per millimeter cubed of bone than if you compare it to a 100-year-old tortoise, for example, and other slower growing animals.
Speaker 2:And that's just because you.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I get it.
Speaker 3:But if you think about it it kind of makes sense because the slower your body is going, you don't need as many cells to change your bones quickly. You don't need as many cells to, you know, measure every inch of your bone quickly. You don't need as many, basically, cells if you're just growing slowly and your lifestyle is super slow and you just don't need as many. But those fast active animals that have short life history so you know they grow up and breathe in a year and then, you know, die in a couple of years or those animals that have a quick turnover, tend to have a lot more cells. So we take that information from the modern animals and we can apply it backwards and figure out the lifestyle of certain extinct animals that will never get to see. You know how fast they run or how fast they breathe or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2:That is wild, because then from the bone that you can then get behavior right, like if something has like a crap ton of these osteocytes, you could probably make the assumption that it was a fast moving creature. Is that? am I on the right track?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it'll give you a range of what would have been possible for them, right? Okay, gotcha. So it'll give you a range of like this animal falls. So like, for example, a lot of theropods meet, eating dinosaurs are actually closer to birds, which makes sense. But even in metabolism they're closer to birds, So that means that they must have had these super active lifestyles. So that's as much that can tell you. It's not going to tell you like this animal could run 60 kilometers an hour You never get down to that kind of position, I wish But it'll tell you that it's at least most closely related to this type of metabolism. Birds, mice, blah, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And could you infer how long they lived Like? is that something potentially like? because tortoises live like over 100 years and a mouse is like tapping out at like four or five right?
Speaker 3:I mean one or two, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, sorry, i don't know. No, no, it's totally fine.
Speaker 3:I don't know, it's totally fine. Now they have like wild turnover. Some mice just live like a year and a half and then just like, that's it. They made like 700 babies at the time and that's it. They're done.
Speaker 3:But so that's a great question. How can we tell how old an animal can live? And that's a different question that you can't really tell by cells. But it's another question that I do study, and the way we do this one is we cut the bone, cut the fossil bone, and you count the rings the same way that you would with, basically, a tree. No way. So you know, if you've ever seen a cut tree, you can count the rings because there's an extra layer that's added every year And that's basically how long bones grow too. They add a layer to the outside every year And so you can actually go back and count how many rings and that shows you how many hard winters that animal's gone through, which is really cool And it looks beautiful. You should definitely Google it or be able to send you a picture, but it looks absolutely beautiful because you see them in thin sections. So we make these very, very thin sections of these bone and you pass light through them and then you can see the lines really clearly.
Speaker 2:So so, how old, give me a dinosaur, how old it lives, like from this, like just around the world.
Speaker 3:So let me throw just one more complication. Sorry, i'm just you're fine, no, no, you're totally fine And I will throw some numbers at you. But okay, okay, unlike trees, dinosaurs, and us as well, because this is the way we grow as well You, if we cut, you know our leg bone, you can count the rings. But there is a complication which is unlike trees, we can't afford to be as heavy, right? So vertebrates. Us things with backbones, us things with skeletons, we can never afford to be just as heavy. So we can't just keep adding on forever. So eventually there's an action called remodeling, which just means basically taking away and then re-adding. So at a certain point, after a certain thickness of bone, there is a removal process.
Speaker 1:Hmm, recycling.
Speaker 3:Which, you can imagine, makes the counting a little bit more difficult.
Speaker 2:Okay, I got it, So it's not as simple as okay.
Speaker 3:But there are some people have been working on some mathematical equations which include the length of the bone and then a sort of retrocalculation.
Speaker 3:So you go back and you put in a number and an equation and it can basically spit out like well, with this length of bone, we estimate that it should have lost maybe three rings or four rings. Okay, and it's not super. You know it's never going to be 100% accurate, but it gives us a ballpark to work with. So back to your request How old do dinosaurs live? And that's a super variable question. So, things that are like small and fast, if you think of like, if you think of like Jurassic Park, where you're seeing all those little sprinty guys that like move and herds and run on two feet, yeah, i like those guys, i think they're supposed to be, i love those guys. I think they were supposed to be modeled after like a C lafices or something like that. Those guys don't actually seem to live that long. It's hard to tell, right? So the specimens we have that we have all sampled at I'm using the Royal V here, paleontologist step sampled Yeah, Seem to only maybe go up to like eight years or so. Nothing, nothing.
Speaker 3:Oh, they do okay, they do okay, they do all right, they do all right. But of course you need to understand. this is also like maybe the group we found is just eight years old. Oh, yeah. Maybe they were groups up north or in other places that don't fossilize so well, that lived well into their thirties. Who?
Speaker 2:knows They're some weirdo northern little running guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, little running guys that were up there that were having midlife crisis, who knows, they're very wise.
Speaker 2:They live up the mountain and the other little running guys run up to ask them life advice.
Speaker 3:Right, and the thing is, a lot of animals are limited by their pressures. Like their bodies can make, them can have them last longer. That's why animals live longer in captivity.
Speaker 1:They tend to Yeah.
Speaker 3:Than in the wild. So paleo is full of biases. So what are things? where are things preserving? So, like a lot of times, things preserve around river is best. So that gives us some bias, which is where a lot of young animals like to hang out. So you know there's some bias there. But back to the other side of the scale, we also have dinosaurs that are like well over 40 and 50 years old. They have so many rings, wow, and they seem to just be kind of slow growing.
Speaker 2:Just chill guys, thera pods or those the big long neck guys.
Speaker 3:So there's a couple of yet thera pods. Actually There's a couple of thera pods that have been counted up to like 40 and 50 rings. Good job, Yeah. But we also don't know if that means they just had more wind, like more hard seasons, like maybe, you know, in theory an animal can migrate in certain areas, And if they had a couple of hard seasons so you had a really bad summer and you had a really bad winter, you could have double rings.
Speaker 2:For example right Yes.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot of little things that we still have to overcome and figure out how to properly calculate these, but we have a pretty wide range, because I mean dinosaurs, you know, ruled the earth for so long. There's so much diversity that you basically can find ones that probably, you know, only lived a few years, to ones that probably made it over 100. Not that we have found them yet, but I would not be surprised.
Speaker 2:I man, my mind is blown. That's so crazy. All right, So I do background on my guests and I was trolling through your website and I found this story. I was wondering if you could just talk about it, where there's this puppet to do Psycom and it's like the coolest looking puppet I've ever seen in my entire life. Could you talk about this project please? It's so cool.
Speaker 3:Sure, I would love to, but let me preface with the it's not done yet.
Speaker 2:Oh is, it's an artist rendition, so it's correct.
Speaker 3:Okay, so it's gonna be made. Absolutely. Yeah, it's in progress now. So what happened was in 2019, a very ambitious me and Brian Ng, who's a paleo artist, were thinking you know, we need to make SCI-COM basically just more fun, and wouldn't it be fun if you met a dinosaur and that kind of thing?
Speaker 3:And we're not the first to think of this, obviously, but we just wanted it to be attainable for the museum I was working at at the time, which was the Museum for Nituakunda in Berlin. Yeah, and so we applied to a science communication grant from the Paleontological Association. It's a UK grant and they gave us some money and they're like go for it. Go make this puppet. Teach people how things evolve to fly, why feathers are cool, why dinosaurs are probably floofy and feathery. Go for it.
Speaker 2:And so then we're like yes, the puppets of a velociraptor. is that correct?
Speaker 3:Correct Yeah absolutely We just thought we were thinking. you know well what's the best pitch, you know what's an animal that everyone knows from Jurassic Park, and if you told them you know this is what it looks like, they'd be blown away. And then that would be a good segue for SCI-COM, right? Because you know you bring something that's popular, you ruffle it and change it up And you explain why you actually changed it up this way. And that explanation you can kind of sneak in all the science.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That was the plan, and so we heard the news that we got it sometime in 2019, december, and I think you know what happened in March 2020. Right, and so things have unfortunately taken some time, but the project is still going And yeah, and it's going to be a really cool little puppet And it's basically designed around my own arm, so I can. It's going to be movable. We're going to open the mouth, the wings will move. We get to show, like, the anatomy of the wing and basically explain how, like you know this little, everyone knows the dopey little T-Rex arms, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like they're tiny. They're in the front, but a bunch of other Therophazes meeting dinosaurs had similar arms, but bigger, yeah, and they actually look a lot more like bird wings. So we want to talk about that connection, but with a physical prop and a personable puppet. So that's the plan And I will let you know as soon as it comes out. Oh my.
Speaker 2:God, please tag us, doc. Absolutely, and we will augment the absolute hell out of that puppet. When it comes to it is okay. Yeah, i just love it. It's cute right.
Speaker 2:I tell my kids the story because I heard it. This is like one of those I heard it from. I heard it from, i heard it from person because the velociraptors in Jurassic Park are just wrong, right Like they're not the right size. And the story I heard from somebody in the movie industry was there was a paleontologist on site that was like no, no, no, this is wrong, they don't look like this. And Steven.
Speaker 2:Stilberg and Steven Spurgbiller was like guess what You're fired? and they just did their own thing. Now I don't know if that's 100% true or not, but yeah, so the dinosaur you're holding is more accurate. And one more question there's probable, is it true? there's like a lot of good evidence that you mentioned that dinosaurs were probably floofy or could have been floofy.
Speaker 3:Wow, Yeah, yeah, and so actually the best evidence that we have are these things called quill knobs And that's a weird term, so let me walk you through it. Yeah, and what that means is when a feather is really strong basically like the big flight feathers you see on like vultures and eagles, the really really big ones on their arms they attach not just into the skin but they attach directly into the bone, which is wild. And so when they attach into the bone, the bone kind of grows around them slightly and has this raised like little ring, and so these raised rings are clear indicators that there were big feathers on these animals. And we have quill knobs on so many dinosaurs. So that's already pretty much one to one evidence that they had these big feathers, even though they didn't have the rest of the anatomy for flight, which is really interesting because it shows that big feathers evolved before flight. So this is a whole side of paleontology trying to understand the evolution of flight, and it's so fascinating.
Speaker 2:What they had feathers like, for what like mating.
Speaker 3:Or you're asking the right questions Like is that true?
Speaker 2:Like, because the birds they do weirdo dances. To like the funniest damn videos on YouTube is like the male birds doing like their crazy dances.
Speaker 3:The birds of paradise, and if you ever look at like lecking videos that turkeys do where they like get up on their tippy toes and like fan their whole tail, you know peacocks, all that all birds are doing nuts dances. But there's other functions for them too. Big feathers can shelter your babies. Big feathers can keep you warm. They can help you. you basically brood eggs And we've seen things like overraptor, which is a big dinosaur that basically has been found with its arms wrapped around its clutch of eggs, like protecting it as it had been buried. So it's kind of a sad story. but it also shows like we have in stone direct evidence of wing like behavior around wing like and maternal and maternal exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:That's ironic, because today is Mother's Day. Exactly, Yeah, I mean totally, you listening to the replay Yeah, it's going to be not Mother's Day when you're listening to this, but anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Doc, i'm sorry But it's no, it's all good, and there's a lot of things in bone biology even stuff that I study that relates directly to motherhood and parental care, and a lot of that we learned from modern birds. So there's this other thing And maybe this will be the last one that I poke at just for my own research, but you can ask me more if you want There's this stuff called medullary bone, and it's extra bone that birds build in their basically bone on inside the middle part of their bone, and that's just like saving up calcium for their eggs, and so they make extra bone, and so when they're going to lay eggs, then they can use that extra bone as a calcium storage. They take it out and put it into their eggs, and that's actually one of our only solid evidence for how we can sex dinosaurs, because, if you find it in a dinosaur.
Speaker 3:right right. If you find it in a dinosaur, you can now tell it was likely a female that was in the process of producing eggs, which is just wild, and it has been found in theropods. There's a whole group working on it. It's really cool stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, Like Yard, when you saw that for the first time, did you like I would have screamed like that is crazy, I'm just like most new discoveries.
Speaker 3:I'm just confused, Oh.
Speaker 2:I would have said bad words in the lab. I would have been like WTF, because that is wild.
Speaker 3:Right, right, um, cool thing. Exactly, i mean, it wasn't me that who discovered it. There's a group in North Carolina that works on it diligently Lindsey Zano's lab and other awesome female paleontologists who works on theropods And so it wasn't me who discovered it. But you know, i've seen it in the section. They're like what is that? What is that? You Google it and you're like it is what? now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that is a freaking amazing. Yeah, i had a kid ask me the other couple of years ago, like how do they know if the dinosaurs were male or female? And I didn't want to tell them because, like I said, i have no idea, because it's not like they have fossilized genitalia. Nope, yeah, that does not get fossilized.
Speaker 3:So there we go. Thank you, of course, totally.
Speaker 2:I always ask paleontologists this and that's their favorite both their favorite dinosaur, but also their favorite extinct species, which isn't necessarily a dinosaur right.
Speaker 3:Right, right, and I, and you know, as somebody who doesn't mostly study dinosaurs, i deeply appreciate that distinction. Um, okay, so what is my favorite dinosaur?
Speaker 2:Yes, what is your favorite dinosaur?
Speaker 3:It's. It's not easy, but I think I'm a big fan of chomarasaurus, which is in basically a short faced sauropod. It's like think about long-necked dinosaurs and then make it a pug.
Speaker 2:And that's what chomarasaurus is. Yeah, they've got a little short face.
Speaker 3:Yeah, They're a little short face and they're shorter. and then we have babies of them, which are so cute. Um, so, you know, if a skeleton can be cute, it's a chomarasaurus skeleton. They're they're definitely one of my favorites. And then, uh, I think they're tied for pachycephalosaurs, the dome headed dinosaurs.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, i love pachycephalosaurs.
Speaker 3:Because they're so wild and we're learning a lot of new things about them that'll come out in the next couple of years that, i think, will make them even more wild. I think that's all I'm legally allowed to say. but um, yeah, they're just really fun, so it's a tie.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:And then general extinct animal Yes, I mean, i have to give a shout out to my group, the group I work on right now, at least currently which are the Armored Ancient Fish. So if you ever think of like Dunkleosteus, like do you know what Dunkleosteus is?
Speaker 2:I do not. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3:Okay, no, it's totally fine, But some of your listeners might And it's basically think of it as a wide shark.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I just Googled it. It's terrifying. It's like six times bigger than a person.
Speaker 3:It's huge Actually. so there's a new study that just came out recently that maybe makes the length about half the length, but all the thickness still remains.
Speaker 1:So it's a chunky boy.
Speaker 3:Chunky. No way which is just perfect. Yeah, that's the official nickname.
Speaker 2:Oh, it is, It's, oh, my God.
Speaker 3:I like how you're fact checking me in real time. No, I just I want to hear. You need the visual.
Speaker 2:I needed the visual, yet The title of this article is Dunk was chunk, but still deadly.
Speaker 3:Exactly. You know, we have fun here in paleo. It's fun, it's wild, it makes no sense, there's a lot of confusion. We definitely need more diversity, but in general it's just such a fun field because we get to just call our animals chunky.
Speaker 2:I love it, so different than every other paleontologist. I've asked My dinosaur. my dinosaur is the ankylosaurus. I love that guy Oh yeah. And then extinct animal. I am very partial to the giant sloths.
Speaker 3:Oh, so good, I can't like. I know, I know we have to keep moving, but I gotta stop for a second because giant sloths make no sense.
Speaker 2:No, they're super weird.
Speaker 3:What the hell right Make no sense And we just missed them. Like we were so close, like humans and giant sloths definitely crossed paths and I'm so upset that I can't see one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they ancient humans like lived when the sloths lived.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you?
Speaker 2:imagine You're like. You're just like ancient Yara is, like you know, in the forest and a sloth like 12 feet tall. Numbers by, like you know what, what the hell.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's 12 feet tall on all fours, on all fours.
Speaker 1:When they sit back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not okay, i don't know, but they weren't fierce right They were.
Speaker 2:They're like plant eaters.
Speaker 3:Well, but they kind of murdered you. They're claw like the average sloth claw, which is probably mostly used for digging Yeah, is probably bigger than both of our faces combined.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 3:So how much do you want to upset it? No for me not much, no, also, i'm going to throw in one more fun fact, and feel free to cut out whatever you need to, but giant sloths, they have bone in their skin, so they were actually covered in like chain mail. So, because they're so recent, we actually have preserved skin from ground sloths and I got to pet one and it was like really rough and weird. Um, yeah, so we had a preserved skin section in Berlin and I got to handle it.
Speaker 3:and if you just turn it over, So one side is just all long fur right, Long, very thick fur kind of almost like the texture of an elephant or something like that, But a little bit softer.
Speaker 3:You turn it over and the fossilized skin is there and it's just covered in like white pebbles. And I'm looking and I'm like what is that? And I look it up and they were just coated in bone because they didn't want to get chopped on because at the same time there were, you know, Pumas and American lions and all that kind of stuff. You have to survive those guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the giant freaking short face bear which is like five times, for example Yeah, five times bigger than the biggest polar bear on earth, the megafauna. The short face bear scare me, man. I love dinosaurs, but when I the more you learn about the megafauna that lived not too long ago like what a wild time to be alive. But, not a very fun time if you were a human Terrifying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we clearly did all right.
Speaker 2:We made it. That's right. Stay in the caves. Okay, I love that answer. Thanks, Doc. So I have. We have a couple standard questions on the podcast that we love to ask guests about, And the first one is to share a pet story from their life. I was wondering if you could do that. Could you? could you share a story about pets from your life?
Speaker 3:Absolutely So I'm going to. yeah, So basically, I was petless for a moment, but that isn't. that isn't my regular thing. I've always had pets growing up, but because of graduate school and moving to Berlin, I became petless for a little while and I was going nuts.
Speaker 3:I was losing it, especially with the pandemic and everything. I was just like you know, i needed. I needed contact with something that cared and made me get out of bed. So I literally looked up somebody who was giving away a little Siamese kitten and I went all masked up and all gloved up in the middle of a pandemic and went and picked up a kitten in Germany for my mental health And she is now my best friend.
Speaker 2:No way Her name is yeah, her name is Sobia.
Speaker 3:She is the coolest little kitten And she has Instagram. If anyone is curious, her name is Sobia the Siamese on Instagram.
Speaker 2:We'll have that link in the show notes.
Speaker 3:And she is just the best thing ever And she's basically a person. And so she got me up out, you know, out of bed every day And she is probably the reason I have my doctorate today, because she would chew on my papers, she would, you know, get on my laptop and just kind of fighting something to get through your work actually made me want to do my work, and it was just. Pets are so good for our mental health and for our overall productivity because I days in the lab. I just wanted to go finish the things I need to finish and then come back to her. So I think net positive, definitely whenever someone's like you know, i'm thinking of getting an animal, this, and that I'm like, if you got the money and you have the responsibility, like I think you should do it. They're so good to us, so, and then I just got her a little sister just recently.
Speaker 2:So there's two of them. What's the sister's name?
Speaker 3:Loza, which means little almond in Arabic.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's adorable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they're both cuddling on my couch right now, Oh they get along.
Speaker 3:They do. Thankfully they do. It took a little minute, but they do love each other. And now they team up to make sure I don't sleep, or they team up to make sure that each of them gets their favorite snacks, which is funny. They like different things and they'll both beg. And then if one gets the thing that they like and the other doesn't, they're like. Looking at me, they're like well, I see how it is. And then I get like a pout all day.
Speaker 2:That's hilarious. I just broke down a study for tic-tac about it's with dogs, but dogs can totally tell when you're not being fair to them. Oh yeah. Yeah, it must be the same with cats. I'm sure they know. Did they, your cats, knock stuff off your counters? Is that a thing that they do?
Speaker 3:They knock stuff off, they steal it, they hide it. Cats, and then if, if, for anyone knows, sign these cats in particular. They're quite vocal, yeah, so I'm just amazed that they're actually letting me have this interview without any interruptions. I'm very thankful.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your pet story.
Speaker 3:Of course.
Speaker 2:The other standard question is the super fact. It's something that our guests knows that when they tell people it kind of like blows their mind a bit. And that's been happening all this interview. So do you have anything left for us to talk?
Speaker 1:Um sure Okay.
Speaker 3:Sure, i mean, yeah, i think I think I gave you a couple of good ones, but a fun one with modern animals And bones that I like to throw around, because it's just an easy one to visualize And it's very Canadian. Um is, did you know that a moose can grow up to a kilogram of bone a day when they're growing their antlers? So they grow such massive antlers every season only to shed them at the end of the season. They're pretty much like the most wasteful animals. But that's what deer do, right? Yeah, they just score these giant racks and then drop them And it's such a big expenditure, but it's all in the name of breeding, right? So they are the animals that probably grow the most amount of bone that quickly, just to throw it out in a couple of months. Um, so that's always wild to me, because moose are just terrifying, but just majestic animals Majestically terrifying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think that's an apt description for a moose.
Speaker 2:When our son Adam was little. we cause, we live in on a farm, we see moose through our window all the time And he aptly named it a dinosaur cow when he was little. and fair, He's not wrong.
Speaker 3:Although probably closer, like a dinosaur deer A dinosaur deer If you want to be that correct? But yes, absolutely, They're wild And the babies are fun because they just grow legs first.
Speaker 2:It's like let me just get all the legs out of my system.
Speaker 3:First, they're so goofy They're just ridiculous, and they're the most aquatic of their group. So, like most, deer are not that aquatic, but moose are so aquatic that they've been found as stomach contents in orcas. So apparently orcas can every now and again eat moose, which is just like what is happening in Canada. Can we discuss?
Speaker 2:When we uh we we take pre pandemic, of course and we're getting back into it. We take groups of kids to the Banfield Marine Biology Center on uh Vancouver Island. It's like on the very western, most side of Vancouver Island.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. That's on my vocalist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a very just gorgeous place, the Pacific Northwest, and we were in a boat uh, cause we, they take the kids and they do all these amazing labs. But part of it is the sightseeing right, You drive to a thing to take a sample but you get to look at the stuff on the way. And we were driving and a moose was just in the ocean And the kids were like is it okay? And the guides like, oh no, they just, they just. Moose swim here. I guess they just do it. They're just in the ocean swimming And it was probably crossing cause there's all these little islands in that area. It was just straight up eating across the ocean to get to the island. So Ridiculous.
Speaker 3:I know We need to save it. What are you doing?
Speaker 2:I know the kids were like do we need to save it? And the guide was like no, it's okay, We can't do anything, It's a moose.
Speaker 3:So that's, that's the perfect response. We can't do anything. It's a moose. That's like the go to response, because what are you going to do? Try to save a moose.
Speaker 2:You can't, it's too big. It's too big, all right. That's a great that's a great super fact. Um, as we're nearing the end of our interview, uh, one of the questions we asked our guests they wouldn't mind sharing is, uh, you know some hobbies or causes that they're passionate about And, doc, I was wondering if you could talk about that briefly, Sure.
Speaker 3:Um, so I'm generally one of my hobbies is birding. I just like to go outside and do watching. Oh, it's always fun, it gets me outside and I garden, but I think the most that I want to talk about today is, um, a cause that I'm trying to say um collect money for. It is the humanitarian crisis in Sudan currently. So that's something that, um, i'm keeping an eye on because my family is right on the like helping with the border um in Egypt. So Egypt and Sudan share a border, so if anyone has any extra cash that they want to donate to a good cause, uh, the USA aid is actually helping out on that border front a lot, actually more than many other countries, so that's always a really good cause to donate to, and the Sudanese people and the Egyptians will both thank you.
Speaker 2:Okay, Awesome Doc, if you send me a link, we'll. We'll make sure that is in the show notes.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Okay, perfect, yeah, yeah, it's uh. That is a. That's a rough thing. There's another another uh person that I know from social audio, actually, and her whole families in Sudan, and it's just like the worst and it happened so quickly?
Speaker 3:Well, it just happened overnight, exactly Right.
Speaker 1:It happened so quickly Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's just like all of a sudden, you're home and there's just bombs flying over you and Egypt is also overwhelmed with taking people and they're I don't know they're doing some unfortunate things to to basically screen refugees, which is literally illegal. You shouldn't be screening refugees. So there are a lot of people that are trying to help and then there's a lot of people that are just doing just awful things. So we just got to help each other out when we can.
Speaker 2:That's, that's all That's a great message And yeah, we'll make sure that's in the. We'll make sure that's in the show notes for everybody. Thank, you. I appreciate that. Okay, well, doc, we're at the end of our chat For me to you. Thank you so much for saying yes, this was so fun and so educational. You're just a brilliant, brilliant person, and thank you for being a guest on our show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for the invite And yeah, if you ever need anyone else or to want to talk about those dinosaurs or the, the very dead, feel free to reach out.
Speaker 2:We're in speaking of reaching out. Can people follow you on social media?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and you can find me at Yara underscore Haridi on both Instagram and Twitter, and I will be updating my website soon for other fun projects and tidbits.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, you know what? Again, it was a treat to talk to you. Take care and best wishes in the future.
Speaker 3:Awesome, likewise.
Speaker 2:Well, that's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the science podcast. Sorry, no family section this week. Adam and all of us have been so busy We literally couldn't get together and have enough energy to do it. So we'll be back next week with the family section. I'd like to thank Dr Yara Hardy, who talked to us about bones and velociraptors and all the cool science communication that she does, and I'd also like to give a shout out to the top tier of our community, the top dogs. It's one of the perks of being in the community, so check the show notes for more information. Chris, let's give them a shout out. Take it away.
Speaker 1:Alicia Stanley, the herd, wendy Diane Mason and Luke Linda Sherry, tracy Halberg, carol McDonald, helen Chin, elizabeth Bougiois, peggy McKeel, mary LaMagna Reiter, holly Birch, sandy Brimer, brenda Clark, andrew Lynn, marianne McNally, catherine G, jordan, tracy Domingu, diane Allen, julie Smith, terry Adam Shelly Smith, jennifer Smathers, laura Stephenson, tracy Linebaugh, courtney Proven Fun, lisa Brianne Haas, bianca Hyde, debbie Anderson, ann Yuchida, donna Craig, amy C, susan Wagner, kathy Zercher, liz Button And Ben Rathart.
Speaker 2:For science, empathy and cuteness.